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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think this woman should have helped?

223 replies

notsolomon · 02/03/2011 13:50

I went to an exercise class this morning. There are about 8 of us. A lady in her late sixties, started feeling ill..she was ashen, she felt dizzy and light headed and she was clammy to the touch (could just have been sweat cooling).

I lay her down, put coats under her feet to raise them up, and reassured her. Her left shoulder/jaw was hurting a bit. It was about 15 minutes before she felt well enough to sit up and she spent that time looking quite ill - eyes closed, heavy breathing, softly moaning.... I was considering calling for medical help but she remained lucid, able to speak and had a regular (if slightly odd) pulse, so I just sat with her. The others carried on dancing but were aware of the developing situation (one smallish room with 8 of us).

Luckily, the old lady recovered a lot by the end but I mentioned to another member of the class that I want to go on a first aid course as I never know quite what to do.

"Oh," said this other woman "I am a doctor actually, but I can't get involved outside the hospital because I am not insured. It is really awkward sometimes."

Either she must be wrong about her legal liability or the law is an ass. Surely a doctor doing her non negligent best to help someone outside a surgical setting because they happen to be there, would not be held personally liable for any untoward outcome? Was this doctor being overcautious (or callous) or was she right not to walk 4 paces over to check up on the ill woman? It just seems human to me.

OP posts:
mybabywakesupsinging · 03/03/2011 21:45

and btw "regular if slightly odd pulse", op?

edam · 03/03/2011 22:37

My sister's a nurse who has often stepped in to help members of the public. Once she ran to assist the victims of a car crash. Only to discover, rather embarrassingly, it was her partner who had failed to stop, leaving two casualties in his wake... (thankfully they both recovered).

Original poster
notsolomon · 04/03/2011 11:00

slightly odd but regular pulse well it was rhythmic enough (not fibrillating in the sense that it around 80bpm but would I really know), but ODD because I took it at her wrist and would get a pulse where my fingertip was and then a fraction of a second later (but noticeably later) it would pulse about 1cm further along where my next finger was. I have no medical background so no idea if/why/how that is possible or whether it has any significance....it's just not something I have ever felt before.

OP posts:
Original poster
notsolomon · 04/03/2011 11:02

So should I have called 999? I would have ended up feeling an idiot and a time waster cos by the time they got there she would (as it turns out) have been fine.

It suddenly occurs to me that perhaps the other 6 there DID know this woman was a doctor and that is why they ignored the situation thinking that if she wasn't concerned then there could be nothing wrong.....

OP posts:
diddl · 04/03/2011 11:17

"So should I have called 999?"

I think so tbh.

It could have been any number of things that warrented her being monitored for a few hrs.

FindingStuffToChuckOut · 04/03/2011 11:19

surely the HIPPOCRATIC OATH trumps 'insurance liabilities/restrictions'??? Or do doctors not take it these days?

SardineQueen · 04/03/2011 11:31

It sounds pretty ambulancey to me TBH.

Having said that, in the situation that you were in, where no-one else batted an eyelid, it can be hard to act. So don't feel bad, I might well have done the same as you, so would lots of people. It's hard to say "actually I think we need to do something quite big and major" when everyone around you is acting as if there is nothing wrong. That bystander effect that people talked about earlier I guess.

edam · 04/03/2011 11:49

Yes, Sardine's right, don't feel bad, it's very hard to be the one person who breaks the consensus, especially if the casualty is saying 'no, don't bother, I'm fine'. But an ambulance would have been appropriate. She may have appeared to recover at the time but go on to have very serious problems with angina/an MI. Had she been taken to hospital, appropriate investigations and treatment could have been carried out.

stubbornhubby · 04/03/2011 12:03

if you had simply got your phone out and started to dial the gym / gym instructor would have taken over from you before you got to the second 9 -- and called 999 herself - there is no way the gym would let themselves be in the embarrassing position of explaining that they carried on dancing while a customer in the room called an ambulance.

whatwouldnigellado · 04/03/2011 12:10

Ill be honest, Im a nurse and I've always felt it is a bit of a grey area. If you reveal your profession, you are required to do all that your professional training entails ( which can mean going with someone to a hospital ect), basically seeing a treatment through to the end. It means that you can't help a bit and then disappear.

You can help without revealing your profession but I'm not sure it is about being an idiot, you only have to look around to see the developing suing culture and see why people are scared to put their profession on the line.

dribbleface · 04/03/2011 12:30

bit off thread but when my dad had a major heart attack his front teeth and ribs were broken with CPR (was not pretty), he survived only because of the paramedics bloody determination and skill. When he was on the CCU afterwards another patient suggested he should sue for damages, my dad nearly gave himself another heart attack letting the man know exactly what he thought of him!

valiumredhead · 04/03/2011 12:40

I agree with stubbornhubby an ambulance should've been called - anyone who needs to lie on the floor, moaning with jaw pains and looking ill needs assistance even if they ARE given the all clear afterwards.

OP I'm guessing what put you off ringing for help yourself was that you would be deemed a 'time waster?' I don' think ANYONE would accuse of that, given the situation you have described. In fact if you do go on a first aid course, I am sure they tell you to ring for help ( MUST update , not done a course for ages! Blush) The instructor should've known better and as I said before I am horrified they didn't call themselves.

As for the rest of the thread - doesn't anyone watch DOCTORS? They are always saving people left right and centre, all over the place. That's real life,isn't it? Grin Wink

stubbornhubby · 04/03/2011 12:41

"If you reveal your profession, you are required to do all that your professional training entails ( which can mean going with someone to a hospital ect), basically seeing a treatment through to the end. It means that you can't help a bit and then disappear"

I suspect you've hit on the exact reason why she didn't help!

SardineQueen · 04/03/2011 12:46

HCPs don't have to see treatment through to the end though. They are always handing patients from one to another. Handing a person over to an ambulance ccrew isn't going to be a problem. If it was, every time anyone went to see the doctor, the doctor would have to come and move in with them until they were better!

BuzzLiteBeer · 04/03/2011 12:48

I think thats bullshit. If a nurse checks someones pulse and advises to call an ambulance, they do not at all need to go the hospital! Paramedics, anyone?

poodlerockin · 04/03/2011 13:00

I cannot believe the class continued TBH.

WTF was the instructor doing? He/she should have taken charge. The doctor should have definitely helped, insurance my arse, she was just making excuses.

sb6699 · 04/03/2011 13:09

I'm actually pretty astounded at the whole scenario Shock

A lady becomes very ill and everyone in the room carries on doing what they're doing apart from the OP.

Whatever happened to human compassion Angry

Itchywoolyjumper · 04/03/2011 16:41

While I certainly think the doctor and the instructor should have got involved here (as should the rest of the participants in what seems to be the world's most callous dance class, even if all they did was stop)I wonder why the OP was taking pulses and other other signs if she couldn't understand what they meant and says she wasn't trained to act on them?
Is it possible that the instructor, at least, felt able to carry on looking after the interests of the rest of the class because the OP made a good show of competence she didn't have?

frasersmummy · 04/03/2011 16:50

does the hippocratic oath not include a clause to ease suffering where ever its found ??? off to google it

Original poster
notsolomon · 04/03/2011 17:48

It wasn't a proper gym, it was just a community centre. I suspect there would indeed have been a first aider at a proper gym, and a protocol.

I might casually ask the instructor next week why she kept going with the class and whether she has any first aid training.

OP posts:
Cosmosis · 04/03/2011 17:53

I know others have said it but I'll say it again, you would not be able to sue someone successfully for stopping to help. DH is a medical negligence lawyer, which as you all know makes me qualified as well Grin and to sue you have to a) prove negligence not just a mistake and b) have suffered some sort of loss.

Ripeberry · 04/03/2011 18:01

Forget about the doctor for a second. The person at fault is the instructor as she has a duty of care to her class and HE/SHE should be caring for the collapsed lady Angry

pigletmania · 04/03/2011 18:33

Exactly Ripeburry! As a instructor her responsibility is to look after her class whilst they are in that session with her, not only take peoples money. She sounds cold and callous tbh. Yes notso I would question her tbh. I take part in a yoga class in a community centre, with a professional yoga teacher, and she is wonderful, and keeps going round checking that we are all ok, I dont see that situation ever happening at our yoga class tbh. That dance teacher sounds totally unprofessional

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