to think this woman should have helped?

[notsolomon]

I went to an exercise class this morning. There are about 8 of us. A lady in her late sixties, started feeling ill..she was ashen, she felt dizzy and light headed and she was clammy to the touch (could just have been sweat cooling).

I lay her down, put coats under her feet to raise them up, and reassured her. Her left shoulder/jaw was hurting a bit. It was about 15 minutes before she felt well enough to sit up and she spent that time looking quite ill - eyes closed, heavy breathing, softly moaning.... I was considering calling for medical help but she remained lucid, able to speak and had a regular (if slightly odd) pulse, so I just sat with her. The others carried on dancing but were aware of the developing situation (one smallish room with 8 of us).

Luckily, the old lady recovered a lot by the end but I mentioned to another member of the class that I want to go on a first aid course as I never know quite what to do.

"Oh," said this other woman "I am a doctor actually, but I can't get involved outside the hospital because I am not insured. It is really awkward sometimes."

Either she must be wrong about her legal liability or the law is an ass. Surely a doctor doing her non negligent best to help someone outside a surgical setting because they happen to be there, would not be held personally liable for any untoward outcome? Was this doctor being overcautious (or callous) or was she right not to walk 4 paces over to check up on the ill woman? It just seems human to me.

What Balloonballs consultants not knowing about basic first aid that anyone can learn on a St Johns course What are they trained for 4+ years for then! Yes as a Dr/Nurse you have a moral duty to try and help isnt that why are a Dr in the first place?

I cannot understand why the the instructor did stop the class and come to help the lady, surely as a fitness instructor she should have been on a first aid course. Disgusting really, that people were continuing to excercise in the presence of a women who may have been seriously ill

Thought that being able to do first aid would be mandatory for a job such as a Dr/Nurse, after all they are working with sick people and saving lives.

I did wonder if I had it right - thought it might have been the BMA.

Not that I know the difference but I know there's a BMA and a GMC!

Not read the whole thread but she's talking bollocks. The gmc states doctors have a duty of care to assist within their limitations in an emergency outside of work. She should have at least be calling 999 with that history.
Was she a medical doctor? I'd be very surprised, she could be in a lot of trouble if reported.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this thread.

Well done op. I'd never go back to that class as I'd have to interrogate the supposed Dr on her speciality and insurance.

As for whoever it was a million pages back who knows a Dr who knows another Dr who was sued for exposing someone's breasts on a plane whilst saving their life...I'd bet that story is total bollocks.

And the poster whose mum is a nurse who won't stop and help because of sone hear-say legal advice? Shame on your mum.

I'm going to warm down now...

i thought you could be prosecuted if you were a health professional and did not help out out of work hours

There is something called the good samaritans ruling, which covers you in the legal courts in the event of helping people in the street. I was a HCA and was advised to jump in if there was someone in trouble.because you were covered.

pigletmania the thing is, first aid is NOT the same as basic life support. All clinicians are supposed to be updated annually in BLS, but that covers cardiac arrest, respiratory arrest and anaphylaxis.

First aid refers to incidents such as choking, burning, drowning, bleeding injuries, head injuries, collapse, cuts and bruises type stuff. Lots of first aid training will naturally include BLS. Not stuff clinicians deal with on a regular basis unless they work in Emergency medicine.

I think everyone should undergo mandatory basic first aid training at school and in the workplace. I find it absurd that so few people know how to 'save a life' yet the basics can be learnt in a couple of hours.

I took a St John's CPR course, and we were told to ask the person if they give permission for us to help, before doing anything.
I could not just stand by and not help someone, I would have to call for help, or would not be able to live with myself. Do unto others etc.

That's crazy! A qualified person cannot help in an emergency, yet those in Saint John's Ambulance are obliged to stop and help if they see an accident/emergency and they aren't trained fully?! It's bloody stupid.

It not true confused, this is going round in circles

That is true, I can barely remember what I learned. I think I better take a refresher course, after reading this.

no wonder people mock the idea of a Big Society when no one will dare help anyone else for fear of some repercussion.

Sidge, First Aid from my understanding also overs ABC and recovery positions which are basic skills that all Drs/Nurses should know. They are taught by ST Johns Ambulance, and I did a course when I was a TA at a school.

sidge there is something wrong if a Dr/Nurse does not know ABC and recovery positions, mabey they should be updated every year.

I haven't read the whole thread but surely thge gym/leisure centre or wherever the class was should have had a qualified first aider on duty?

'Stopping the class would have been dangerous and exposed everyone to illness/injury, the most obvious reason being peoples heart rates dropping suddenly.'

This sounds dubious. I have had to abandon high intensity work-outs or circuit training at home to see to a suddenly screaming baby. You'd just tell the group to cool down while you sorted it out. They'd be fine.

I really, really doubt that a British court would prosecute a doctor for helping someone out unless they did something utterly daft.

Exactly edam, I heard that about the BMA doctors rushing out from a friend who worked down the street from them.

When I was in Greece last summer someone dropped a windsurf board on a toe. THere were lots of doctors rushing around to help.

I qualified as a nurse in 1999, and it was regularly taught to us that we were obliged to stop and offer assistance if we came across an accident/sick member of public.
In fact we were told we could be sued if we didn't assist!
I bet that there is not one single case of a Dr or nurse being sued for an outcome to an incident. Unless you did something really silly or attempted something outrageous you had never been trained for which damaged/killed someone who would otherwise have survived you will be fine. What judge or court would allow someone who was trying to save a life to be sued?! It just wouldn't happen.
And shame on those in the health service who would walk away...surely they are human beings before "drs and nurses"?
Unbelievable!

Only read half. Some doctors in my family they always helped. Even though they were sometimes a bit about it, my mum reckoned that old ladies waited for her specifically before keeling over in the queue for the post office

But of course they help am flabbergasted that anyone wouldn't.

Also I think that it was ambulance time for the old woman with those symptoms in the gym class - sounds like a heart attack.

I am PMSL that it's dangerous to stop exercising suddenly. FGS how dim are some people

Its shocking isent it Sardine, even if it was the teacher could have just told everyone to start winding down and gone to the womans help. Really the mentality of some people, surely as a fitness teacher she should be required to have completed a first aid course.

piglet of course I agree, all docs and nurses should know their ABC and recovery position, that's encompassed in BLS training. I was trying to explain the difference between first aid and life support. Medics should know their life support and god help us all if they don't!!!!!

I am still convinced that if people were instructed in basic first aid as well as BLS we would have far fewer time wasters in A&E/primary care, and maybe fewer incidents like the one the OP mentions. I am still astounded that a supposed fitness instructor would carry on her class whilst a woman seems to be having either an MI or an angina attack...

Surely if you are working as a HCP in any form, and find yourself perfectly able to walk away from a person having a heart attack or a child who has been hit by a car or someone choking and turning blue, or whatever it might be, then you are by definition in the wrong job.

I am a doctor.
I don't think anyone medically qualified would have any doubt about the potential significance of the symptoms described. Even if they qualified a long time ago...angina was described at least 2600 years ago...All they had to do was say "yes call 999". Tricky to be sued for that. What was she planning to do if the woman arrested?
MDU cover for good samaritan acts. I wouldn't dream of relying on the insurance of my NHS employer (have been told by managers before that I would not be covered if something happened while I worked longer than my rota hours...obviously they think we should go home and leave sick patients...). I think the vast majority of doctors have their own cover as well.