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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think this woman should have helped?

223 replies

notsolomon · 02/03/2011 13:50

I went to an exercise class this morning. There are about 8 of us. A lady in her late sixties, started feeling ill..she was ashen, she felt dizzy and light headed and she was clammy to the touch (could just have been sweat cooling).

I lay her down, put coats under her feet to raise them up, and reassured her. Her left shoulder/jaw was hurting a bit. It was about 15 minutes before she felt well enough to sit up and she spent that time looking quite ill - eyes closed, heavy breathing, softly moaning.... I was considering calling for medical help but she remained lucid, able to speak and had a regular (if slightly odd) pulse, so I just sat with her. The others carried on dancing but were aware of the developing situation (one smallish room with 8 of us).

Luckily, the old lady recovered a lot by the end but I mentioned to another member of the class that I want to go on a first aid course as I never know quite what to do.

"Oh," said this other woman "I am a doctor actually, but I can't get involved outside the hospital because I am not insured. It is really awkward sometimes."

Either she must be wrong about her legal liability or the law is an ass. Surely a doctor doing her non negligent best to help someone outside a surgical setting because they happen to be there, would not be held personally liable for any untoward outcome? Was this doctor being overcautious (or callous) or was she right not to walk 4 paces over to check up on the ill woman? It just seems human to me.

OP posts:
weegiemum · 02/03/2011 14:36

As far as I know, all doctors are insured (my dh is, costs £££)

And all are covered for so called "good samaritan" work.

In fact, I have a feeling they can actually be prosecuted for not helping, though that might beout of date.

Certainly, my dh is always stopping to help little old ladies who have fainted in Tesco etc, but he's a good'un!

Toughasoldboots · 02/03/2011 14:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LessNarkyPuffin · 02/03/2011 14:41

The actual chances of being sued are low but the possible consequences are huge.

As a HCP you're held to a higher standard. In the OP's case for example, if the doctor has said you need to go to the hospital and the woman had said she felt fine now and wanted to go home, then later had a heart attack, you could argue that the doctor should have insisted that she went to hospital or at least called an ambulance.

Sidge · 02/03/2011 14:42

toughas I'm also rather astounded that not one person thought to call for help for someone so unwell. Especially a fitness instructor and a doctor.

Regardless of whether you think the person is having any sort of cardiac event or not, why not call an ambulance? It's their call as to whether the patient requires admission or intervention and no-one would expect a layman to make that judgement call. It's better to call 999 when it's not needed rather than not call it when it is needed. (Disclaimer I'm not talking about calling 999 for lost kittens/broken nail/because you can't be arsed to wait for a taxi etc)

LessNarkyPuffin · 02/03/2011 14:42

If you don't work full time you are not necessarily covered.

tethersend · 02/03/2011 14:45

It's one thing not to offer medical help for fear of litigation.

It's quite another to carry on dancing whilst someone has a possible heart attack behind you.

balloonballs · 02/03/2011 14:45

You could argue it till you were blue in the face, wouldn't make any difference.

Even if the woman identified herself as a dr, which she would be mad to in my opinion, she only has to do what is reasonable, calling an ambulance against someones wishes is not reasonable.

Nor can you force someone to see a dr.

KnockedUpMell · 02/03/2011 14:49

All NHS doctors are covered for NHS work only. For actions outside of work, you need to have private insurance, which is not a legal requirement., Of the two big UK companies, I believe only 1 covers good samaritan acts. So it's not fair to assume the doctor was automatically covered. Also if she didn't work in acute medicine, and was working in a lab for instance, this may well have been out of her depth and she is not obliged to help. I don't think it's fair to judge without knowing her circumstances.

midnightmunchies · 02/03/2011 14:55

As a nurse, I do not understand how other members of my profession could walk by some one that needed help. I went into nursing to care for people (cliched I know!) The NMC is clear that you should stop and help with in the scope of your professional practice. I too have been told that it is highly unlikely that you would be sued for trying to help with in your scope of practice and someone did try it would be thrown out. I am sure there was a case a few years ago where a nurse refused to stop and help and she was struck off.
I question the Dr in the OP's case - if that person had had a cardiac event and died, could her relatives not sue her for NOT helping and letting their relative die. What happened to do no harm. You can do harm by omission as well as by action.

Diablo82 · 02/03/2011 14:56

I have never met a doctor who does not have private medical indemnity insurance. I do know of someone being criticised by the GMC for NOT helping in a good samaritan role. I would feel it was my moral duty to try and help. Havind said that if the doctor in question had been working in something like clinical genetics for 20 years they may have no acute medical experience. I would like to think they would still be able to offer sensible advice.

LessNarkyPuffin · 02/03/2011 14:58

I shall introduce you sometime Diablo82

mmsmum · 02/03/2011 14:58

I did my last 1st aid training in 2008 and was told there had been cases of people trying to sue, think one example was the broken ribs one and another was a lady who felt too many buttons on her blouse had been undone. Myth or not we were told to save a life if you can, but none of us were doctors and nurses.

The fitness instructor should have kept the class going, or in a real emergency quickly cooled them down before stopping as she/he has to think of all the participants. But as the lady was already being attended to by others she did the right thing keeping the class going. Her other option would have been to ask a regular goer who she knew would be safe to stop to call for help. It's not the instructor that's got responsibility here its whoever is the appointed person in the building

balloonballs · 02/03/2011 14:59

Fair point Knocked, she may be a pathologist for all we know with the patient skills and first aid knowledge of a monkey.

The op may have been by far the better choice to help....

But the no hcp needs insurance to provide basic help which is all that anyone is ever expected to offer if they wish.

If a hcp decides to provide anything more than basic care within their field of experience, eg a dermatologist does a trache then yes, insurance would be required.

VivaLeBeaver · 02/03/2011 15:00

The Dr is right that she wouldn't be covered by any insurance, however she's unlikey to be sued as long as she doesn't do anything dangerous or out of here sphere of competence. She's not going to get sued for calling an ambulance. But then I suppose if she decided that the woman wasn't ill enough for an ambulance and it turned out later it was a heart attack then she could be in trouble/sued for not recognising that and calling an ambulance.

A Dr friend of mien never responds to medical assistance calls on planes, etc. A friend of hers did when a woman had a collapsed lung on a plane. The Dr saved the woman's life using a coat hanger and then got sued by the woman as her breasts were exposed to the other passengers. I don't know how successful she was.

agedknees · 02/03/2011 15:02

I helped a collapsed man on a plane. And have also stopped at a car accident. I can't believe the doctor did not help. Whatever happened to decency?

Also think the fitness instructor should have stopped the class (and the ambulance called).

Hollycatt · 02/03/2011 15:02

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Message withdrawn

thefirstMrsDeVere · 02/03/2011 15:08

Doctors have to pay a fortune in liablity insurance dont they?

A doctor is just as likely to be sued for something they do in a hospital anyway. There is a shortage of Obs consultants in the US because of the litigation that goes on.

I think its a bit of an urban myth that HCP are not allowed to help if they see an emergency. Thank God for all those Drs who came out of the seminar near Russell Sq after the 7/7 bombings.

Imagine if they had sat on their arses in case they got sued Hmm

mmsmum · 02/03/2011 15:13

The instructor was not bad, he/she did the right thing! Stopping the class would have been dangerous and exposed everyone to illness/injury, the most obvious reason being peoples heart rates dropping suddenly.

Btw, I think if the doctor thought she needed an ambulance she would have mentioned it, but she and the instructor are both trained to spot the difference between a real emergency and exercise induced illness

BuzzLiteBeer · 02/03/2011 15:13

its complete bollocks. There is no need for private insurance for anyone to assist in an emergency situation. What for? What do you think anyone is going to do to them for helping? The only time you need seperate indemnity insurance cover is if you explicitly volunteer your services at a set time or place.

Theres no basis in law to sue them for helping you. There is no good samaritan law in the UK because there is no need for one.

diddl · 02/03/2011 15:17

OP-why didn´t you call an ambulance?

Did the lady ask you not to?

Hollycatt · 02/03/2011 15:20

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Message withdrawn

springbokdoc · 02/03/2011 15:23

I'm a doctor and have helped out in similar situations. I have private insurance (I don't know any doctor who doesn't) and it covers for samaritan acts. But regardless we are covered generally as long as we act within our experience and competency. In that situation, not being funny, I think it might have been helpful as I'd be a tad concerned about heart problems and it shouldn't have fallen to you to look after this lady.

Btw, our insurance premiums are dependent on how much private work you do and your grade. As a junior doc with no private work mine is about 40 quid a year for each of them (am so disorganised haven't actually got round to cancelling one of them Blush)

LessNarkyPuffin · 02/03/2011 15:23

I do think doctors should help, and I don't think they'll really get sued, but I do think that insurance companies encourage them not to.

Rhinestone · 02/03/2011 15:25

mmsmum - are you for real? You honestly think that an aerobic cool down takes precedence over calling an ambulance for a possible cardiac arrest?

Do you really think that? You have absolutely no common sense, let alone compassion if so.

mmsmum · 02/03/2011 15:26

Well Hollycatt we did the same course but it's obviously changed since you did it many moons ago, instructors are taught not to stop the class (and many classes are that hard, what about body attack for example) unless it is a real emergency and this wasn't. The op said the lady had recovered after resting and I think the instructor would have been able to tell that from the front of the room. And are you really comparing humans with vet physiology?