to think this woman should have helped?

[notsolomon]

I went to an exercise class this morning. There are about 8 of us. A lady in her late sixties, started feeling ill..she was ashen, she felt dizzy and light headed and she was clammy to the touch (could just have been sweat cooling).

I lay her down, put coats under her feet to raise them up, and reassured her. Her left shoulder/jaw was hurting a bit. It was about 15 minutes before she felt well enough to sit up and she spent that time looking quite ill - eyes closed, heavy breathing, softly moaning.... I was considering calling for medical help but she remained lucid, able to speak and had a regular (if slightly odd) pulse, so I just sat with her. The others carried on dancing but were aware of the developing situation (one smallish room with 8 of us).

Luckily, the old lady recovered a lot by the end but I mentioned to another member of the class that I want to go on a first aid course as I never know quite what to do.

"Oh," said this other woman "I am a doctor actually, but I can't get involved outside the hospital because I am not insured. It is really awkward sometimes."

Either she must be wrong about her legal liability or the law is an ass. Surely a doctor doing her non negligent best to help someone outside a surgical setting because they happen to be there, would not be held personally liable for any untoward outcome? Was this doctor being overcautious (or callous) or was she right not to walk 4 paces over to check up on the ill woman? It just seems human to me.

Most drs and nurses haven't a scoobie about first aid, why should they? Paramedics, a&e staff yes otherwise not a scoobie.

Of course they do!

Every person who works in a health care setting has to attend mandatory training days regardless of their job titles, and on these days basic life support is covered. And anyway it would be covered as part of their training too. I cant imagine a Dr being able to perform a CS but not do CPR can you

In my last year of training we had to pass a OSCE that covered Neonatal life support, Adult life support as well as dealing with other life threatening complications such as PPH.

Most drs and nurses haven't a scoobie about first aid, why should they? Paramedics, a&e staff yes otherwise not a scoobie.

No they don't do first aid because first aid is just that. Dr's/Nurses etc are fully trained and as ECP says attend numerous and ongoing CPD to keep their skills up to date.

On 7th July, the doctors running the General Medical Council (so not currently working in a hospital) were all in a meeting when they heard the bomb explode on the bus in Russell Square.

Did they continue to sit there and wring their hands over their insurance?

Did they hell. They ran out and did what doctors do - treating the injured and dying. Many lives were saved.

Provided a Dr acts within their capabilities there is absolutely no risk of being sucessfully sued.

So Dr. approaches patient, checks pulse, makes assessment, calls ambulance = fine

Dr approaches patient, snatches gym instructors headband to use as tourniqet, amputates hurty arm with nail file from handbag = not fine.

We've been trying to explain that to people for some time now Nancy. Hopefully the penny is finally beginning to drop

PMSL at halting gym class being "dangerous"

Instructors behaviour was disgusting.

Basic life support is not exactly first aid but fair enough most have training.
The thing is I know more than a few consultants who would most definitely tell you that despite a bls for two hours every two years wouldn't feel competent to attempt cpr in any situation.

Quite Nancy!

The dangers of doing star jumps and then...stopping. The public must be warned!

I think it's probably telling that when an old lady collapsed at church one lovely lady (trained nurse) went to help and ordered her medical consultant husband to go and phone an ambulance and then sit at the side rather than take up valuable breathing space - she knew far more first aid than her eminent consultant dh as he mainly knew about endocrine stuff and was otherwise a bit of a spare part.

I'm thinking of asking mn towers to attach a sticky to the top of the thread explaining it's utter bollox.

Save the continual circling conversation.

You've all got me worried now.

Is it safe to ever stop exercising once you have started?

No - once you start you must NEVER stop. For anything.

Best to just never start the exercising Quick, not worth the risk you know.

balloonballs come now - you know the continuing circling conversation is all part of the fun

Plus it gives the opportunity for such gems as stopping exercise is dangerous - best reason to stay sat on my arse that I can think of!

The thing is I know more than a few consultants who would most definitely tell you that despite a bls for two hours every two years wouldn't feel competent to attempt cpr in any situation

Well they are arseholes who only care about their salaries then.

Hopefully if they collapse in the street then someone on a shitty wage like me will have the decency to at least try and save their lives.

The thing is I know more than a few consultants who would most definitely tell you that despite a bls for two hours every two years wouldn't feel competent to attempt cpr in any situation

I do think thats crap. I dont think you can honestly say they wouldnt ATTEMPT CPR.

Have learnt such a lot on this thread

1. never ever stop exercising, it is dangerous to do so.

1. never ever ask "Is there a Dr in the house?" as DRs don't know any first aid or how to save lives. They will also get sued if they help outside.

Barking expectations of the general public.

QLB

Makes me even more scared of visiting hospitals now. If the MRSA doesn't kill you then the Doctors will with their alarming lack of medical knowledge.

I said they wouldn't feel competent.
Not that they wouldn't attempt it.

The point being that it's perfectly possible for a qualified member of St Johns Ambulance being a safer bet for efficient cpr and first aid in general.

Nurses and doctors are actually pretty crap at first aid. (BLS is not first aid, it is first response.)

If you present a casualty with a laceration bleeding like a stuck pig to a group of housemen or nurses they want to start putting lines in, replacing fluids and suturing them up - they can be so highly trained and clinical they miss the obvious and go straight for the technical!

This is reminding me of an episode of Baywatch (I know, I know ) where some woman needed resucitating, and a chisel jawed man stepped forward saying "I'm a surgeon", only to be rebuffed with "but he's a lifeguard"...

I find the idea that somebody who might have been in a position to assess whether or not this woman needed emergency help carried on doing an exercise class in the same room utterly bizarre.

And isn't the cooling down thing to help avoid aching muscles? Rather than death?

The whole scenario makes me think that she was not a medical doctor. That or she's just a cold hearted cow.

DH did his St Johns Ambulance course, which insures him for samaritan acts not covered by any other insurance as long as his first aid certificate is up to date.

I will therefore ensure that I never need first aid unless I am with DH

notsoloman, please report this to the gymn or whoever runs the building. That instructor is dangerous and could have cost this woman her life.

Btw, it was doctors from the BMA who rushed out to help the casualties from the bus bombing on 7/7, not the GMC. Minor point but it just so happened the bomb detonated right outside BMA House. I'd been working there the day before - was quite strange seeing all these middle aged docs, who haven't been near A&E for 20 years since they were junior house officers, suddenly dealing with a real, massive emergency.