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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think this woman should have helped?

223 replies

notsolomon · 02/03/2011 13:50

I went to an exercise class this morning. There are about 8 of us. A lady in her late sixties, started feeling ill..she was ashen, she felt dizzy and light headed and she was clammy to the touch (could just have been sweat cooling).

I lay her down, put coats under her feet to raise them up, and reassured her. Her left shoulder/jaw was hurting a bit. It was about 15 minutes before she felt well enough to sit up and she spent that time looking quite ill - eyes closed, heavy breathing, softly moaning.... I was considering calling for medical help but she remained lucid, able to speak and had a regular (if slightly odd) pulse, so I just sat with her. The others carried on dancing but were aware of the developing situation (one smallish room with 8 of us).

Luckily, the old lady recovered a lot by the end but I mentioned to another member of the class that I want to go on a first aid course as I never know quite what to do.

"Oh," said this other woman "I am a doctor actually, but I can't get involved outside the hospital because I am not insured. It is really awkward sometimes."

Either she must be wrong about her legal liability or the law is an ass. Surely a doctor doing her non negligent best to help someone outside a surgical setting because they happen to be there, would not be held personally liable for any untoward outcome? Was this doctor being overcautious (or callous) or was she right not to walk 4 paces over to check up on the ill woman? It just seems human to me.

OP posts:
balloonballs · 02/03/2011 14:07

It's not the law. All health professionals can help the public to the best of their abilities without fear of prosecution.

Hammy02 · 02/03/2011 14:09

I think the doctor was right about being uninsured. What would happen if a doctor was out in town, a bit drunk and someone collapsed? If they tried to help but the patient got worse, could the doctor be sued for helping while drunk? Or should he stay away?

LessNarkyPuffin · 02/03/2011 14:09

It's the way insurance companies are now, as a result of so many cases. I think a lot of the examples of 'elf and safety gorn mad' are actually eg schools being told by their insurers that they will not cover claims fo accidents caused by eg conkers games. So the school bans conkers and looks silly, because it can't afford to risk the pay out.

paddypoopants · 02/03/2011 14:10

Surely she could've had a look at her to see if she required an ambulance or not. She didn't have to do open heart surgery on the spot or even offer a diagnosis. I'm surprised the instructor didn't call a first aider and/or an ambulance.Hope she and you are ok.

tilder · 02/03/2011 14:10

I'm with badger - think its odd they everyone continued for so long. Did the instructor stop to ask what was going on?

MMQC · 02/03/2011 14:11

My FIL was a GP and has maintained his insurance since retiring to cover just such scenarios. Otherwise he would be open to being sued. But I do think all doctors have a duty of care, insurance or otherwise.

3littlebadgers · 02/03/2011 14:12

YANBU I was on a flight recently and a young chap collapsed. A young lady doctor helped him for the duration of the flight and she was fantastic! Didn't stop some of the grumpy arsed passangers complaining that their food trays hadn't been taken away though! Angry

diddl · 02/03/2011 14:12

You´d have thought that the Dr could have at least had a look & suggested an ambulance if she thought it necessary?

TittyBojangles · 02/03/2011 14:12

I really thought there was some kind of professional obligation to help for Drs and nurses (though not all other HCPs). I thought their governing body required them to help as part of their code of conduct type thingy. I may well be wrong of course (usually am)... and can't someone only sue if the person who has helped has done something other than what a 'typical' Dr or nurse or whatever and it has actually caused harm. This would be really hard to prove of course. And I thought the professional body (GMC/NMC) provides a certain amount of insurance doesn't it?

Diablo82 · 02/03/2011 14:13

Actually I disagree, I am a doctor and my personal indemnity insurance covers "good samaritan" acts. I might not be able to give much specialist help if it was a problem outside my area, but I would feel obliged to see if there was anything I could do.

Sidge · 02/03/2011 14:13

I can't speak for doctors however as nurses we are encouraged to recognise our limitations outside of work. Our professional code of conduct says:

"Whilst employers have vicarious liability for the negligent acts and/or omissions of their employees, such cover does not normally extend to activities undertaken outside the registrant?s employment. Independent practice would not be covered by vicarious liability. It is the individual registrant?s responsibility to establish their insurance status and take appropriate action."

As a nurse my professional obligation is to assist within the capabilities of my clinical and professional experience.

My professional code of conduct says:

"You must be able to demonstrate that you have acted in someone?s best interests if you have provided care in an emergency." and "You must recognise and work within the limits of your competence."

So I am only required to assist where I am able to do so. If a nurse hasn't received BLS training and feels unable to safely carry out basic life support then she is not obliged to attempt it (one would hope that all nurses are up to date with BLS!!)

So in that scenario given by the OP one would hope that a doctor would see someone was ill and at the very least recognise that the person may be having a cardiac event and call 999. There is no obligation for the doctor to provide any further medical care as far as I am aware.

RunnerHasbeen · 02/03/2011 14:14

The first aid course I did recently said not one person in the UK has ever been sued for trying to help and getting it wrong - it is an urban myth (even in the US they are inventing a Samaritan clause). If she is a member of the BMC, she does in fact have a duty of care and is covered in this way (there is a capability clause to cover being drunk).

balloonballs · 02/03/2011 14:15

Why identify yourself as a hcp in these situations?

The only duty of care anyone has in public off duty is to the same level as a lay person i.e. do as much as possible to the best of your ability.

Rhinestone · 02/03/2011 14:17

Thank you all the doctors and nurses who have posted to say they WOULD help.

Glad to pay my taxes for the likes of you lot! Smile

LessNarkyPuffin · 02/03/2011 14:19

It doesn't matter if there haven't been cases. It matters that the insurance companies can refuse to cover you or hugely inflate your premium. You can't practise medicine without insurance.

valiumredhead · 02/03/2011 14:19

I'm stunned the instructor didn't ring for an ambulance more than I am about the doctor not helping ( although I'm pretty stunned by that too!)

LessNarkyPuffin · 02/03/2011 14:21

MMQC a lot of insurance is very specific now. If you work part time your cover may well be restricted.

LessNarkyPuffin · 02/03/2011 14:24

I'm surprised by the instructor too, as they did have a duty of care, and I would have thought that recognising a potential heart attack would be necessary training to lead an exercise class.

BooyFuckingHoo · 02/03/2011 14:25

moss if you read my post you will see that my mum has been advised not to give medical aid outside of her job role. i did not anywhere say that my mum complied with this advice. i was responding to the OP who asked if the doctor involved was wrong about her legal liability.

privategodfrey · 02/03/2011 14:27

Agree that the 'being sued' notion is an urban myth.

The Paramedic that taught our CPR class told us that even if someone tried to sue you for saving a person's life (and breaking their ribs in the process as often happens) then they wouldn't get far.

As long as you don't deliberately cause harm and the force you use is not excessive then there isn't a court in the land that would convict you.

Must say I'm glad they've changed the recommendation about giving mouth to mouth as I don't tend to carry a 'guard' around with me every day!

OnEdge · 02/03/2011 14:28

I strongly agree with LessnarkyPuffin Those are the symptoms of a heart attack. She ought to get it checked out .

LessNarkyPuffin · 02/03/2011 14:30

A doctor wouldn't have to be found guilty though. All it would take is their insurance company finding out that they had acted to drop them.

Mermaidspam · 02/03/2011 14:31

Fucking ridiculous!

If I were a Doctor I would take the risk that I might be actually able to save someone's life well before I considered the legal implications of something going wrong.

After dropping dd at school one day last year I witnessed quite a bad accident. I pulled over and ran to the car that had crashed, just as my best friend (a nurse) drove past me.

She later gave the same excuse as the lady in the OP, I still can't get over that.

LessNarkyPuffin · 02/03/2011 14:32

I do have a lovely story of a HCP repeatedly calling an ambulance for a patient with jaw pain, to have the order repeatedly cancelled because toothache is non urgent Hmm

EleanorJosie · 02/03/2011 14:33

I don't see legally why a medically qualified person would be more likely to be sued than someone who did a half-arsed first aid course 15 years ago and remembers a bit...but just does their best to help out. Of course if they do it in their own capacity then they aren't covered by their work insurance...but then neither is anyone else whatever their line of work.

I think it's outrageous if people are being given this advice at work.

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