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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think this woman should have helped?

223 replies

notsolomon · 02/03/2011 13:50

I went to an exercise class this morning. There are about 8 of us. A lady in her late sixties, started feeling ill..she was ashen, she felt dizzy and light headed and she was clammy to the touch (could just have been sweat cooling).

I lay her down, put coats under her feet to raise them up, and reassured her. Her left shoulder/jaw was hurting a bit. It was about 15 minutes before she felt well enough to sit up and she spent that time looking quite ill - eyes closed, heavy breathing, softly moaning.... I was considering calling for medical help but she remained lucid, able to speak and had a regular (if slightly odd) pulse, so I just sat with her. The others carried on dancing but were aware of the developing situation (one smallish room with 8 of us).

Luckily, the old lady recovered a lot by the end but I mentioned to another member of the class that I want to go on a first aid course as I never know quite what to do.

"Oh," said this other woman "I am a doctor actually, but I can't get involved outside the hospital because I am not insured. It is really awkward sometimes."

Either she must be wrong about her legal liability or the law is an ass. Surely a doctor doing her non negligent best to help someone outside a surgical setting because they happen to be there, would not be held personally liable for any untoward outcome? Was this doctor being overcautious (or callous) or was she right not to walk 4 paces over to check up on the ill woman? It just seems human to me.

OP posts:
Hollycatt · 02/03/2011 16:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

iscream · 02/03/2011 16:07

FRom nursing-concept.blogspot.com/2009/02/nursing-care-plans-for-activity.htmlInstruct client to stop activity immediately and report to physician if experiencing the following symptoms: new or worsened intensity or increased frequency of discomfort, tightness, or pressure in chest, back, neck, jaw, shoulders, and/or arms; palpitations; dizziness; weakness; unusual and extreme fatigue; excessive air hunger. These are common symptoms of angina and are caused by a temporary insufficiency of coronary blood supply. Symptoms typically last for minutes as opposed to momentary twinges. If symptoms last longer than 5 to 10 minutes, the client should be evaluated by a physician (McGoon, 1993). The client should be evaluated before resuming activity (Thompson, 1988).

Quenelle · 02/03/2011 16:08

You can't properly assess a person's condition from the front of an exercise class. The instructor should have left the class marching on the spot and attended to the woman. And the doctor should have too.

I hope the woman is ok OP.

Lulumama · 02/03/2011 16:30

OP, totally unreasonable to not call for medical help, not necc ambulance, but to find at least a first aider. so before you get all judgey pants, look at your own actions first, it's great you helped, but in those circs, you , presumably not a nurse/doc etc, were not really in a position to make a judgement call as to whether she needed more help or not.

the instructor should have stopped the class and someone should have been found to administer proper first aid

i am stunned no-one did this

Sassybeast · 02/03/2011 16:38

It's an absolute urban myth and as far as I know there has 'never' been a case of someone being sued for a good samaritan act. I'm not actually convinced that the woman who claimed to be a doctor WAS a doctor. The scenario described is text book for cardiac warning signs and I find it very very hard to believe that a qualified medic wouldn't advise calling an ambulance. Someone is not being truthful IMO.

penguin73 · 02/03/2011 17:36

Sadly in this day and age some people will do anything for money, including suing somebody for trying to help them. I think it would be a very tough judgement call to have to make knowing that my family could lose everything if I tried first aid and the recipient saw it as a good chance to get a 'free' payout. I was asked today if I wanted to seek compensation for a fall as I had a strong case - I tripped over a cat!!!

But I am astonished that the class leader didn't offer assistance (and call the first aider if it was a gym or leisure centre)

BuzzLiteBeer · 02/03/2011 18:00

Stop believing everything you read in the daily fail and cop on. No-one has EVER sucessfully sued someone in anything like these circumstances, and COULD NOT WIN against you.

jonicomelately · 02/03/2011 18:33

What BuzzLiteBeer said.

penguin73. Whoever told you you have a strong case for tripping over a cat is wrong. They are probably on a fee for every person signed up.

penguin73 · 02/03/2011 18:55

Course they were, my point is that there are companies out there exploiting people and encouraging 'victims' to try it on - and there are many people who are tempted to do it.

interesting reading:

www.insurefirstaid.com/PDFs/The%20Legal%20Status%20of%20Those%20who%20Provide%20First%20Aid.pdf

penguin73 · 02/03/2011 18:55

or even:

[http://www.insurefirstaid.com/PDFs/The%20Legal%20Status%20of%20Those%20who%20Provide%20First%20Aid.pdf]

Toughasoldboots · 02/03/2011 19:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

jonicomelately · 02/03/2011 19:06

That article says there are no reported cases of first aiders bringing a claim to court.

I don't understand your point.

jonicomelately · 02/03/2011 19:06

Rather, an injured or ill person bringing a claim AGAINST a first aider to court...

penguin73 · 02/03/2011 19:23

The comment that whilst none have gone to court this is due to out of court settlements and that, although it has not yet happened, it is potentially possible. I know my link is from an insurance company and hence biased and selective in the information it gives, it is still factually correct as far as the legal jargon is concerned.

Original poster
notsolomon · 02/03/2011 19:35

Suffering happpens whilst "someone else is eating or opening a window or walking dully along".

It felt very Musee des Beaux Arts:

poetrypages.lemon8.nl/life/musee/museebeauxarts.htm

with everyone dancing round whilst this lady was lying there ill. Quite surreal actually. I just couldn't do that.

Isn't it a well known phenomenon that the more people there are, the less responsible each feels? A single person in a room with smoke evacuates a lot earlier than a roomful where each takes reassurance from the calmness of the others.

Why didn't I call an ambulance? Partly for that reason - the insouciance of the others.... even though yes, a heart attack very much crossed my mind. Oddly, years ago, I was in Liberty's and an old man had a heart attack right next to me. Other shoppers were literally stepping over and past as he died (he did die Sad ), and the shop assistant at the till was reluctant to take a break from selling to call 999. I had to insist (pre mobiles, of course). My only comfort was that I was with this man, holding his hand, as he died. I REALLY must go on that first aid course.

But to discover there had been a DOCTOR in the room shocked me and confused me.

OP posts:
jonicomelately · 02/03/2011 20:11

You are surmising about the out of court settlements penguin73. Are you a lawyer, and if so are you in the UK?

BuzzLiteBeer · 02/03/2011 20:11

Its called the Bystander Effect, collectivity reduces responsibility.

TragicallyHip · 02/03/2011 20:26

My friend is a doctor and she is reluctant to help people outside of work (although she has done) because if something goes wrong she can be sued!

BuzzLiteBeer · 02/03/2011 20:28

Like the entire thread says, bollocks.
If you are a doctor and you will walk past someone clearly in need of medical intervention because of the vanishly remote chance of being sued for a case you would win anyway...then you're a shitty doctor.

jonicomelately · 02/03/2011 20:33

Have these doctors never heard of the Hippocratic Oath?

Personally, TragicallyHip, I think if your friend failed to help a person in need, they should be reported to the GMC. I'm trying to remember a case where somebody was in a position to help an injured man, didn't and was either sued or prosecuted. I wonder if your friend is aware of that?

TragicallyHip · 02/03/2011 20:34

That's bullshit BuzzLiteBeer My friend is a bloody fantastic Doctor but would certainly not like her licence revoked for helping someone outside of work.

That saying of course it's pretty unlikely she would ignore someone in need but I can see why doctors and most people would not want to get involved.

jenniec79 · 02/03/2011 20:34

She's talking rubbish. Doctors have been sued for NOT helping at accidents but never in the UK for helping. She's an idiot.

COI - doctor

TragicallyHip · 02/03/2011 20:35

So your damned if you do and your damned if you don't eh jonicomelately?

jonicomelately · 02/03/2011 20:37

Absolutely. She should have the brains to realise she's more likely to be culpable for what she didn't do (when she could've helped) rather than what she did do.

If she can't work that out she isn't the brilliant doctor she purports to be.

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