To think that our expectations of babies behaviour in this country are too high?

[Tryharder]

There seems to have been a lot of threads around at the moment along the lines of "my baby is 5 weeks old and still won't sleep through the night" and "my baby won't go 4 hours between feeds, is she just greedy" or "my baby wants to be picked up a lot - is she just manipulative?" You get the picture....

Have just read a post about someone who left a very young baby to cry it out (don't ask me to link) and they are all smug about it because "it worked".

It makes me so cross and sad for the babies concerned who are subject to draconian regimes. Why are we so negative about babies in this country and so determined from Day one to impose on them a routine that makes our lives convenient, not theirs.

I know I will be flamed .

Yes I know. I dont actually advocate 'methods' but instead think you should do it your own way, or at least the way that works for you and baby. Have no issue with people who do though, think most people have their childrens best interests at heart

'You do realise they will still expect to be treated like that in toddlerhood and beyond? I would be concerned that they would still be demanding everything when they want it.'

Actually they don't. DS1 is 4 and DS2 is 2 and they are both very independent and polite little children. :) Is that seriously what you were worried about? Is this where the 'child manipulation' theory comes in? That if you don't 'show then who is boss' at an early age that they will be out of control as toddlers/children? Just because you respond to a baby's/child's cries does not mean you have no boundaries for behaviour as they get older.

The reason I won't just shut up about CC is because I think it is wrong to 'train' a child by ignoring its only method of communicating with us. I will never agree that it is the 'right' thing to do for a baby. I accept that people need routines but there are gentle ways to create routines that do not involve leaving them to cry so why not use them? I may not change your mind (because no one is ever going to admit they did something that didn't have their child's best interests at heart) but maybe other people will think twice about using it and will choose a more 'baby-friendly' route.

I was just googling a famous sleep trainer as an NCT friend was talking about her methods and how she had just night weaned her 6 month old cold turkey on her advice following a telephone consultation (I was a bit shocked at this tbh - cold turkey night weaning on a 6 month old...?) and I saw comments from a parent who had done 4-5 hour feeds on their newborn up to 5.5 weeks in the next room with no baby monitor old, then cry it out for 3 nights. They were proudly saying how the baby then slept through. I felt a little bit sick and a lot sad thinking about that poor little baby crying it out for three nights at 5.5 weeks old. I think that it is this kind of thing that the OP is talking about, not moderate routines followed by loving parents! Bubblymummy, I think you are being quite self righteous and OTT about other people's choices!

I didn't do a routine with DD, would have liked to as am a creature of habit but she wasn't into following one. However I did end up figuring out when she needed to sleep and making sure she napped enough during the day (was a bit clueless to start with) and now (6 months on) we have a loose day time routine which fits around when she needs to sleep and eat (rather than when a book says she does) and she has a set bedtime routine and bedtime which works well. We worked with the No Cry Sleep Solution, which is an attachment parenting book that advocates flexible routines! Attachment parenting and routines are not incompatible. I think it's a shame most parents don't seem to realise that there is another option apart from CC or CIO. Fine if that's the method you choose, but I think it's a last resort for a lot of people who maybe wouldn't realise there are other ways.

Brices, my advice would be to not worry too much about routines in the early days. You could try to follow one but if it doesn't work, don't get too stressed out about it because a lot of babies just don't do what the books say! A lot of babies don't settle into a routine till they're a few months old and their routine change as they develop.

bubbleymummy, you seem unable to accept other people's ways of doing things. JJ babies were obviously happy to sleep through 7-7 from and early age. My baby was the same, sleeping through 7-7, and I have never even read Gina Ford or any parenting books. That is just what she did. And she is EBF. And has steadily gained weight since birth. And has never suffered from dehydration. Just because this seems so far from your own experience doesn't mean it's wrong or unhealthy.

bubbleymummy: You keep talking about crying. I have never once stated that I let my children cry it out at any time. I was lucky enough to not have to resort to such a method but I certainly would have made use of it if I had to. probably not at 5 weeks though. that would seem a little draconian even to me ;)
I like GF beacuse it gave me advice in the early days of being a new mum. Surelythere is nothing wrong with that?

I was never worried about child manipulation. I just like being in charge and knowing what my day holds and at what time. I am simply a believer in routine and have thus applied this to my children too. As a teacher in a boarding school and wife of a housemaster of a boarding house, I know form experience that children who have no routine and have no experience in just "getting on with it" very often have more trouble at school and the acadmic rigour that it demands of them.

Nobody is asking for you to like our methods but to accuse us of being negligent parents is rather outragous, to be frank with you. I dont necessarily agree with your method but would never accuse you of being a bad mother. Surely, there is no need for such behaviour.

Anyways, have a good evening ladies. About to eat dinner and then watch some telly. We all deserve a bit of a rest after a hard day of being mummies :)

Well we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one ladies! Same old argument - different people! Off to get my children ready for bed and sleep (without leaving them to cry ;) )

theresapotato - I did actually say in one of my posts that if children naturally sleep through then great.It was actively encouraging children to go this long that I was objecting to.

Bubblymummy you are right on CC.

Londonlottie, janinaj, lamorna - speaking so much sense.

bubbleymummy can't believe you are still banging on about how everyone who lets their baby cry a little is damaging their baby in some way. Many babies and young children cry when they are tired - they are just tired and need to sleep. Anyone who is in tune in their child will know the difference between tired crying and distressed/hungry crying. Shoving a boob in their mouth isn't necessarily responding to their needs either. Piling on the guilt on everyone who makes different choices to you isn't fair. Personally I think a few minutes of crying is less damaging for a child than months and months of broken sleep/sleep deprivation (for the child) - how does that affect a baby's developing brain??

Brices I read both books, as well as Baby Whisperer. I found them useful for tips and developing my own routine - but personally would avoid following any of them to the letter. Although Alison Scott Wright fitted better with my baby's own natural sleep pattern, and I found her sleepy-time reassurance technique very good.

"Many babies and young children cry when they are tired - they are just tired and need to sleep."

Sigh, yes, but it's how you get them to sleep. Do you reassure them or just leave them to it?

"Shoving a boob in their mouth isn't necessarily responding to their needs either."

Well it is if they are hungry/want a comfort feed! :)

"Piling on the guilt on everyone who makes different choices to you isn't fair"

Why would you feel guilty unless you think it is something to feel guilty about? If it is something you feel guilty about doing then maybe you shouldn't have done it.

"Personally I think a few minutes of crying is less damaging for a child than months and months of broken sleep/sleep deprivation (for the child)"

Why do you think a baby won't sleep unless you leave it to cry? Also, a baby crying in the comfort of a parent's arms is completely different to a baby crying by itself in its cot wrt stress.

Yes, my daughter often used to have a little cry before dropping off - there was nothing desperate about it and it never went on for very long. She used to cry more if I held her - I think it was just her way of blocking out the world a little before reaching sleep. Sometimes babies don't like to be fussed about with. I think parents who recognise that are in tune with their babies not negligent.

Each to their own. If you want to respond to every whimper, feed on and off all day and all night - knock yourself out but you may both end up sleeping poorly which is surely not in anyone's interests.

Hear hearLondonlottie

I can categorically say that my baby did not want to be in my arms - he would get more and more worked up.

I allowed him to cry with reassurance if he needed it, but did not allow him to cry himself to exhaustion - it would be considered grizzling - not screaming. I did not feel able to do this when he was very young however - he was 4.5 months old and addicted to his dummy as though it was crack, every time he came into a light sleep he was waking for it. I BFd him until 10 months - and would feed him when he was genuinely hungry.

I did not take the decision to 'sleep train' him lightly at all, and I was terrified of doing him harm. I will probably be flamed for allowing him to cry at that age, but he learned to sleep without his dummy very quickly and has probably only cried during the night/going to sleep for about an hour in total his whole life. He loves going to bed and goes to sleep with a smile on his face. I cannot believe that this has raised his cortisol levels to such an extent that it will have damaged him. I truly believe that he has benefited from months and months of quality sleep. I have such a happy baby, I do not feel guilty in any way.

However, I totally accept that others wouldn't want to take this route and respect their parenting decisions - I think it is wrong to slam people for the decisions they make with their own child. One size does not fit all.

Been reading thread.....usually just post on the buggy ones as am pramaholic but like many vie been drawn in here.....like whatbyou saying jj about when its dark we sleep when light we play and having to teach babies that...agree, also I don't think that doing that is enforcing, I think it's responsible and a parents job, how else does a child learn....like now my dd1 is three (just) and needs her bath, Telly, snack story routine to help her ease down from whatever drama and excitement the day has produced,,,,i think even very young babies need the same, quiet, dim light, cosy cot and room, then they learn it's sleepy time ...I reckon it's important to follow babies cues though and part from basic bath last feed bed thing just relax mummies! I just made sure both my dd's always had a bath then they would be in lounge with me if bf all eve and as soon as they were a few weeks old and doing a longish chunk of sleep at night I would maximize that by putting them in cot and cheering! Soon enough that long sleep started after the bath/feed/Telly. Hurrah, no major tears, no routine books, just me Being a mummy. Fwiw I cuddled dd1 to sleep then left with a dummy and she slept fine, when ready she was happy left in cot just with dummy after story and cuddles, then aged two plus one week got in big girl bed with no dummy ...I'd binned em and went to sleep with a muslin clutched in her little hand, if they whinge n cry I go in and replace dummy or blankie and up to age 7 months or so give boob and now for dd2 bottle as stopped bf as she 99 centime, three meals day from 6 month and bled me dry! Every child different, dd1 didn't need feed at night from 5month, dd2 still def does at 7month, that's fine, shell stop soon enough, usually once and I quite enjoy it for now, I have to admit though I can't leave them to cry....but then they never really have unless hungry or I'll xoz I cuddle them! That's what babies are for surely!!!! Dd1 already wipes wet kisses off her forehead, slobber them while you can , cuddle em loads, sod the self soothing if you feeling pressured to choose a routine per say. But if you want one then go for it, you know best for own baby, follow instincts, s your own mum and mum friends and fwiw I reckon all babies are diff but prob do respond in similar fashion to basic routine imposition eg bath feed quiet time sleep......I m 32 and a nice shower, good dinner, Telly, book in bed wind down equals sleep for me! Babies are just mini people! Put yourself in your babies shoes or babygros and it often helps you figure out what they need without having to enter a bookshop, spend the fiver on a bottle of red instead. Xxxxx

Oooo juke will I can agree with that, my dd1 was a cuddle monster but dd2 sometimes just has to be put down to cry and wriggle around a minute while I just shah her before I pick her up and cuddle her in again and she sleeps! I noticed it from about 5, weeks old, I think because she was so big she didn't always feed to sleep so very early on I had to consider whether she was needing snuggle time or just to pop her in buggy or cot to fall asleep! Some babies def need their space at times....I wouldn't want a cuddle off dp if I was all hot n bothered and overtired, I usually give him a kick I. The shins at such times!!!

Sorry auto correct didn't mean juke obv ment juleswill

londonlottie - you don't have to hold your child to be with them. Some people will just lie beside their children or shush-pat them or whatever - but they don;t leave them to cry and if they know the baby wants to be picked up then they pick them up, if they need a comfort feed then they give them one. I'm not saying that everyone should do one particular thing to settle their baby - every baby is different - I just think they should meet the baby's needs rather than just leaving them to 'self settle'.

mummyistheword - you give some good examples of how routines can be introduced with using methods such as cc :)

i agree that you should parent on instinct, but sometimes your instinct will tell you that your dc does not need to be picked up at every cry, sometimes it is best for them to self settle.
now some may think that this is off topic but i will say it anyway,
i have been breeding cats and dogs for 10 years and obviously they are purely instinct led but i have witnessed my bitch feeding her pups for up to an hour she then decided that was long enough and left the basket the pups cried for 2-3 mins then went to sleep. therefore it cannot be totally unnatural as animals are the most natural of parents..

well you wont be flamed by me - I just dont get the obsession with trying to get a small baby to sleep through the night and it is for the parent's benefit not the baby's...

And I don't get it when parents make no attampt whatsoever to give thier children a stuctured feed and sleep pattern during the day, all in the aid of competative mayrterdom at the nect NCT class:

'Ohhh, gosh, I had to BF Charlie 10 times last night'
'Really, well Pertula is 5 and still needs a bottle every hour'
'Well Rupert still wakes a couple of times a night at 21, but what CAN you doooooooo'

Our NCT class is a competition as to who can follow Gina the closest. I was considered 'odd' for still feeding on demand at 6 weeks. A sleep routine would have been lovely though.

Yes msklo it is total obession with getting babies to sleep through, and competition isn't it to an extent for some parents....I think all the books and obsession have made some parents think that a baby should sleep through but that's not what babies do' just because loads info on how to get them to do it doesn't mean it's normal from a certain age.....babies tummies are tiny, they need re filling, everything has to be done in such a rush nowadays, look at the bigger picture, let your babies be babies and trust that with gentle guidance be it from a selection of books on routine, your common sense, your friend or mums advice they will do what you want them to do to suit you both.

STSPCT, that is really sad to think of the the little pups crying for their mother.. She probably needed the toilet or a drink!

"Shoving a boob in their mouth isnt necessarily responding to their needs,either"

TBH, after 3 DCs I have yet to find a problem where a boob in mouth did not go a llong way to ease a situation.

flame me

BUT I THINK SOME MOTHERS TRY TO MAKE THEIR BABIES ROUTINED TO SHOW OFF a kind of prideful look at me thing I know a few who have done this certainly but then they have been the show off holier than thou types anyway.