To think that our expectations of babies behaviour in this country are too high?

[Tryharder]

There seems to have been a lot of threads around at the moment along the lines of "my baby is 5 weeks old and still won't sleep through the night" and "my baby won't go 4 hours between feeds, is she just greedy" or "my baby wants to be picked up a lot - is she just manipulative?" You get the picture....

Have just read a post about someone who left a very young baby to cry it out (don't ask me to link) and they are all smug about it because "it worked".

It makes me so cross and sad for the babies concerned who are subject to draconian regimes. Why are we so negative about babies in this country and so determined from Day one to impose on them a routine that makes our lives convenient, not theirs.

I know I will be flamed .

Very true moonunit and very sad that natural baby behaviour is seen as wrong :(

well, anyway. My two are sleeping now so got to get on with housework.
nice to chat ladies.

Hi I followed Gina Ford quite religiously with DD, she slept thru as JJ's did from 6 weeks, was entirely breast fed too. With DS we tried the same approach - whole different story! He was a far hungrier baby, would wake multiple times a night for a feed until 9 mo, and is only now at 13mo settled into a routine with his nap in the day. Think you just have to find what works for you, what works for your baby, and do your best to survive and hopefully enjoy that first year! Most Mums will find it hard in one way or another, whichever approach you take. Piling on the guilt doesn't really help anyone.

i belive that differant things work for differant people. i had 3 dcs in 3 1/2 years and without routine my house would have been crazy, with a routine in place from day one it ment taht all my dds had oneto ont time with me dayly. i must say though that i dont see why some mums are so against CC as being so unnatual every parent needs some time to themselves.

Maybe we'll find out in the future london. DH reckons we should have twin girls next :)

"I know it suits you to think that your babies got the best deal going, but actually I don't think they - by definition - did."

My babies got what they needed so that was the best deal going for them. I'm not saying they never cried but they were never left to cry alone. DS2 sometimes grizzles a bit when he's going to sleep but I stay with him until he does. As you say, it only takes a few minutes and if it reassures him then it is worth it imo.

I don't 'get off' on being needed I've just accepted that a baby needs its mother and its my job to meet my baby's needs. FWIW my children are not clingy or insecure at all. They are both extremely outgoing and confident little people but when they need me they know I'm there and that I won't ignore them. :)

Just thought I would have a look and can't believe this thread is still going and that bubbleymummy is still doggedly arguing down any Mum who followed a prescribed routine. I echo what many of the other posters have said - do what is best for you and your baby be that Gina Ford or Attached Parenting, one size does not fit all in this case.

Carolina, I can't believe that you still think I am against routine! Silly lady - off you go! :)

Bubbleymummy Maybe you should re-read your post

Insecure parents always need to prove they are right!

Maybe you should reread them - I have said several times that I am against FORCING routines through methods such as cc etc. Everyone has a routine of some sort, even if it is just the order we do things everyday!

Just because people do not leave their children to cry does not mean they do not have a routine.

Bubbleymummy You are really not fooling anyone. The poster janinaj was lambasted by you for allowing her non crying children to sleep 12 hours. If the baby doesnt wake looking for food then how is the routine enforced? Janinjai already said that her children were developmentally fine so why did you post the following;

I think encouraging a very young baby to go so long without food for the sake of routine is a very bad idea. Especially a breastfed baby. You can not force feed a bf baby so if they feed regularly during the day I just can't see how you would make them take more! This means that they are missing out on crucial feeds at night which could really impact on their growth and development. (not to mention the risk of dehydration!)

It seems like you have no acceptance of anyones way but your own and I really dont understand that. Surely you can see that every mother and child is different.
As for new mums reading this and getting ideas - well I imagine most new mums in real life dont take the advise of an anonymous internet poster as gospel.

I don't see how my post suggests that I am anti-routine CR.You're reaching a bit! It points out that enforcing a routine at an early age ( 5 weeks in this case!) can be risky - especially for a breastfed baby. JJ's children did not magically sleep through at 5 weeks - she encouraged them to do so by putting them into a routine and while her children may have been ok it could have had horrible consequences for other babies.

"It seems like you have no acceptance of anyones way but your own and I really dont understand that. "

I am very accepting of plenty of different methods of parenting but I do not accept cc as a necessary part of parenting. No child NEEDS to be left to cry and there are other, gentler ways of encouraging babies into routines that do not require them to learn to 'self soothe'.

bubbleymummy: why cant you just accept that we all do things differently. I resent your suggestion that I in any way put my children at risk by following Gina Ford's routine. Both my children are very healthy and thriving under their routine as they get plenty of sleep every night and plenty of food and love during the day!
You are suggetsing enforced routines are bad for the children??? Who in their right mind would jeopardise their children's well being just to stick to a routine? Noone. All we advocate is that for us, it worked very well and some kids do really well on these rouitnes, be it GF for any other one.

To all you other ladies, especially CarolinaRua: thanks for supporting me on this one :)

JJ - I expect you to be defensive of your decision because no one likes to think that they have wronged their child in any way. The fact is, some children would be at risk if they were left for 12 hours without being fed (my DS1 for example) so any routine that encourages that is potentially dangerous. Yes, your children were fine but that's the problem with these 'one size fits all' routines. Every baby is different and just because your child managed fine and gained weight and stayed healthy despite not feeding at night from an early age does not mean that every baby would. You didn't know in advance that your child wouldn't be at risk from that type of routine - you only know in hindsight that they still managed to gain weight etc - what about the poor woman whose baby is dropping several centiles on the charts because of it? If you had been one of them you maybe wouldn't think as highly of your book.

The problem is, as I pointed out before, that someone reading that book (and reading here that it worked for you) could think that there was something wrong with their child for not being able to do it. They may withhold feeds, switch to formula from bf and/or generally question themselves and their own baby based on a book written by someone who has never met their baby!

Once again, there are gentle ways to establish routines and I am not against routines in general just ones that are forced. (how many times do I have to say that?)

Hi, I am 38 weeks now, getting very excited! I am trying to decide between Gina's routine and the one proposed by Alison Scott-Wright. Alison's routine seems less prescriptive but Gina has thousands of advocates for a reason doesn't she? Any experiences of these two routines?

Brices, Why don't you wait until you meet your baby and follow try to follow its cues. The people who wrote the book have never met you or your baby and the baby has never read the books! They are all different and tbh, if you are feeding on demand at the start, there is no set routine because every baby is different. Good luck :)

Am very much not defensive. In fact, I am very proud of the fact that my children follow these routines and that my husband and I still managed some us time in the early weeks of having our babies. As I have said before, contented mummies make contented babies.

Maybe you should think of it this way bubbleymummy: we all do things our own way but there is no need to criticize a safe and proven to be effective by 1000s of mums routine such as GF just because you dont like it.

Also, you say that you support routines as such but not enforced routines. Routine by definintion is enforced by someone. Mostly that is the parents. Why should it be the child? Are you telling me that an infant knows what is best for them?? Surely not....
Babies need food and sleep and love. they dont care at what time of the day they receive this as they cant distinguish between night and day. Thus, I make sure they learn that when it is dark we sleep and when it is light we play. This will make sure that mummy is well rested and happy. Very simple really.
By establishing the fact that mums/dads know best, the child knows what is what from a very early age. that, in my opinion, leads to contented children and very little stress in the household.

Brices: as said before, I followed GF with both my children and it worked a treat. You need to be disciplined at the beginning but it pays off very quickly and you end up with a very contented little baby. I would advocate it to any new mummy!
Good luck by the way. Hope all goes well for you :)

bubbleymummy What about the mothers welfare and development. A friend of mine followed attached parenting to the letter, she felt that doing anything else would be basically cruel. She ended up in hospital with a severe case of pneumonia, brought on by sheer exhaustian. She couldnt feed and was literally broken hearted
Yes she is an isolated case, many other friends have followed this method successfully, however you seem to be just concerned with the baby, mothers need to be well too.

JJ, I'm not sure that just because 1000s of people do something it can be seen as 'safe'.

My husband and I also managed time in the early weeks as well but we didn't have to look at a book to tell us when our baby should be eating or sleeping in order to do that. They both ate when they were hungry and slept when they were tired. Why do you need to tell them when to eat and sleep? Do you think they won't eat or sleep if you don't tell them to?

At night we slept in a dark room and if he woke for a feed he was fed in bed, in the dark and he went straight back to sleep. He woke up in the morning with us and we started our day. There was no 'we have to be in a certain place at a certain time so I can do X' - we just got on with our day and he fed/slept/played throughout the day. I knew what his cues were for being hungry/tired and gradually they were just in their own routine - no enforcing times or letting them cry to 'train' them required!

I suppose it sells books; convincing people that their baby won't ever get into a routine unless you do x, y, z.

As far as the 'happy mummy, happy baby' scenario goes ( I hate that expression!)- do you really think a crying baby is happy? Really?

I also find it very amusing that many of you say things like 'every baby is different' and yet you all use the same routine from a book! Yeah - that really takes every baby's individual needs into consideration! Because of course EVERY baby should sleep/eat for a certain number of minutes at a certain time of the day EVERY day. LOL!

Brices I seem to find myself agreeing with bubbleymummy here but I also wouldnt recommend picking a 'method'.
I followed instinct with some routine thrown in, mainly driven by my DD but somewhat driven by myself when I knew I needed more sleep.
You dont know what type of baby you will have (except an adorable one of course).
Good luck, its such a happy exciting time

Wow CR! :)

I believe if it were not safe it would have been taken off the market a while ago.

Well done you for being the perfect mother then and never letting you child cry and always giving him/her what he needed at that precise moment. You do realise they will still expect to be treated like that in toddlerhood and beyond? I would be concerned that they would still be demanding everything when they want it. Not sure I would want my child to behave like that. each to their own though.

the reaosn lots of us follow that routine is because it works though. Yours worked for you so that is fine too. You are the only one on this thread who is being judgemental and critical to others' choices of parenting.

Why cant you just accept that we all chose our own method and there are probably pros and cons for each of them.... bt noone should be hounded by anyone for voicing their opinions!