To think that our expectations of babies behaviour in this country are too high?

[Tryharder]

There seems to have been a lot of threads around at the moment along the lines of "my baby is 5 weeks old and still won't sleep through the night" and "my baby won't go 4 hours between feeds, is she just greedy" or "my baby wants to be picked up a lot - is she just manipulative?" You get the picture....

Have just read a post about someone who left a very young baby to cry it out (don't ask me to link) and they are all smug about it because "it worked".

It makes me so cross and sad for the babies concerned who are subject to draconian regimes. Why are we so negative about babies in this country and so determined from Day one to impose on them a routine that makes our lives convenient, not theirs.

I know I will be flamed .

I've only read a handful of posts as the thread has got so long but I am SHOCKED. I am new to all things parenting (DS1 is 4mo) and had never heard of things like co-sleeping before Mumsnet (still not met anyone who has done it...I tried it for a while but just could not relax and sleep - I can see how lovely it must be if it works for you tho) BUT I have also NEVER heard of anyone who leaves their baby to cry at night!! Baby cries - you get up - that's how it works - right? What did I miss?

Not saying I can't see the logic in Controlled Cyring if you are losing the plot with sleep deprivation (I nearly dropped my son with tiredness once and that's when he moved into his own room - I decided the danger from me was pretty immediate) but CC is where you have a plan, right? You leave them for X minutes, go back, comfort them...rinse and repeat - so different to just being left to cry.

Mumsnet confuses the hell out of me at times. It just seems so polarised and extreme and not at all like Mums I actually meet. Hmmm

Just to add - I haven't done CC on my 4mo - before someone comes along and reads poorly worded post...

Thank you for your sympathetic responses.

Tryharder I've never forgiven him for that. But he did redeem himself by coming out in support of me BF for 1 year and not weaning early, against MIL and SIL's wishes. Once he saw that what I was doing worked. But he wouldn't do co-sleeping and moved DD to her own room at 6m. This is so alien to my experience of mothers and babies.

Must say Nature and little DD helped too. She just refused any sort of bottle or teat. And my milk supply never stopped despite all the interference. She has never had a problem going to sleep or "sleeping through". And if she ever did wake or cry I was there. Of course, now she's 2+ it's a different story!

I think it's whatever suits to be honest.

We've done baby-led with a few tweaks from us. She was sleeping through from about 3 months and can't stay awake for more than 2 hours, so we get up at 7am have naps every two hours, feed on demand and go down at 7pm. I'm aware that we're very lucky.

She recently started getting very scream-y before a sleep. I followed her cues, picked her up, comforted her, offered her bottle etc... and it made her much, much worse to be honest. She needed to sleep and us fussing around her made her more stimulated and frustrated, giving us a permanently tired and grumpy baby. Before a sleep she now gets put down with a kiss and then I leave the room. She shouts for about a minute and then settles.

If we had carried, on our relationship would have suffered because after being screamed at for a day I don't have the longest fuse with my DH.

We do it this way as it works best for us as a family. If being completely baby-led was the better way to go for us, then I would have done that TBH.

What I forgot to add is that different ways work for different babies. Nobody should be judged on what they do. As long as the baby is happy and healthy, that's what counts. We all try and do our best.

I have two little ones (9 months and 2.5 years) and with both I strictly followed Gina Ford's routine and both did sleep through the night from about 5 weeks and have had long lunch time naps too. I have never had any sleep issues with them. Obviously, I cannot say for certain that this is due to the routine being established at a young age but it worked very well for us and I would not change a thing.
I suppose, we as parents must decide which is the right way for us and the the baby will be happy either way. A contented mother makes a contented baby!

Dubai- well they still are left to cry. Regardless of whether you go into the room every x minutes the concept is the same: leave your baby to cry until it realises there is no point. There, you've won. The baby is now 'trained' and is no longer trying to 'manipulate' you.

I think my major issue with cc is that it goes against our instinct to respond to our baby's cry. So often on MN you hear 'trust your instincts' and yet for some reason with cc it is ok to ignore them

janinaj - what do you mean by sleep through?

London, if you don't want to respond to your children and would rather they 'self settle' when they are tiny then that is your choice. Do I think it is nice? No. Would I do it? No. I could not sit and listen to a monitor with my baby crying at the other end. I would want to know why they were crying and because they can't tell me why I would just do whatever it was that stopped them from crying be it milk/cuddles/patting them if they didn't want to be held but I wouldn't leave them to it in any way. You can justify your decision to yourself all you want but I won't agree with it.

bubbleymummy: they slept from 7 p til 7 am from 5 weeks. We have been very lucky indeed. Never suffered sleepless nights which obvioulsy lead to me and husband being rrsted and relaxed...which leads to happy children.

I would actually really worry about that jj especially if they were bf! Small babies eat little and often and going for 12 hours without a feed at 5 weeks is quite a long time. Does GF really promote leaving small babies that long without a feed?

so, in my humble opinion, I say routine all the way!

Not in the first few weeks, no. They fed at 7pm then 10pm and then in the morning but there is no point in waking a baby after midnight if they dont wake by themselves. Both my boys gained weight regularly. They ate very well during the day so that they could sleep through the night. This is what GF encourages. babies who get their milk quota during the day do not overfeed at night. I think it is irrelevant whether one is breast feeding or bottle feeding. Her routines remain the same and as I have said, they worked perfectly for my children.

Seriously, is this right? Is there a book out there that encourages 5 week olds to go 12 hours without a feed?! That is really shocking.

If a child sleeps through without a feed by itself at that age then so be it but to encourage that?!!! What about growthspurts etc? How on earth is this conducive to successful breastfeeding? Is it any wonder that the rates are so low in this country :(

Not true jj - breastmilk is digested faster than formula milk. Also, the engorgement for the mum would be awful!

These strict routines don't work as well for breastfed babies janinaj - did you bottlefeed?

Breastfed babies just don't take the same volume of milk as formula fed babies, and formula is harder to digest, so their tummies are full for longer. It would be very unusual for a breastfed baby to go 12 hours without feeding.

well, I breastfed my first and never had any issues with engorgement.
You misunderstand the point bubbleymummy: you are encouraged to get the baby to have full and regular feeds during the day in order to avoid unnecessary waking at night. If they do wake at night after midnight then of course you feed them in the first few weeks.
Anyways, I realise you dont agree but as I have said: my children have been excellent sleepers all their lives and I believe that is due to a rouitne from an early age.
To be honest, as parents, one has to chose the right direction for oneself. There is no right or wrong way to get through the first few weeks of having a tiny baby. Do what suits your family. And for us, routine was the chosen direction.

moonunitalpha: yeah, breastfed my first and second for nearly 6 months each.
I suppose, it could also just be that we were lucky and both ould have done well even without a routine. But hey, I love it :)

JJ, not sure if you xposted with moonunit there.

No one here is against routines - just enforced routines.

I think encouraging a very young baby to go so long without food for the sake of routine is a very bad idea. Especially a breastfed baby. You can not force feed a bf baby so if they feed regularly during the day I just can't see how you would make them take more! This means that they are missing out on crucial feeds at night which could really impact on their growth and development. (not to mention the risk of dehydration!)

If your children came through it then that's fine but the worry is that a new mum will read your post - or a GF book! and think that her 5 week old bf baby should be sleeping through the night and that she must be doing something wrong and then she maybe starts giving bottles because she thinks that might make a difference and whether it does or not, she has compromised her breastfeeding relationship all for the sake of a silly book that is telling her what her baby 'should' be doing. :(

bubbleymummy: all I can say is, it worked for us and our children and many 1000s more.
However, i would never encourage a mother to change what she is doing just because she reads something online. We all do what is right for us and if you work through GF properly, you will find that the babies are always number one priority. If they are hungrier babies then she encourages feeding for as long as necessary. What she discourages however, is the idea of lots of little feeds at unschedued hours. These tend to be used much more as a soothing mechanism rather than actually nourishing the baby. This is where it would be easy to get into bad habits by breastfeeding baby just to sooth. And then baby gets used to that of course and you end up with overtired mums as they did not get any sleep during the night.

Our children were very early at sleeping through it has to be said, though. If I rememebr correctly most GF babies sleep through from about 10 to 12 weeks.

I found it very helpful to have someone give me advice on what I should or should not be encouraging in my baby. Again, I suppose we are all different and respond to different things. Mine is GF...

bubbleymummy: what do you mean by xposted with moonunit?

posted before you read her response re bm taking longer to digest.

'What she discourages however, is the idea of lots of little feeds at unschedued hours."

That is called feeding on demand and is important in establishing breastfeeding. I think it is horrible to not feed a baby if it is hungry and milk is not just food it is the baby's drink too! What if the baby is just thirsty for a quick drink?

"These tend to be used much more as a soothing mechanism rather than actually nourishing the baby."

Apart from what I said about them maybe just needing a quick drink - What is wrong with letting a baby suckle for comfort? Why do you think people use dummies? It's a nipple substitute. Babies suckle for comfort and again I think it is horrible that we are made to think of this as 'wrong' and 'inconvenient' and something that needs to be corrected. :(

Different people definitely have different attitudes towards parenting, and if our own way feels "right" then it's difficult to imagine other people wanting to do something so alien.

For me and ds, breastfeeding was about a lot more than getting milk into him, it's a huge part of our relationship and is about love and comfort as well as food. For someone who sees it more as a feeding method, it's easier to see comfort or feeding on demand as "bad".