Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think that our expectations of babies behaviour in this country are too high?

513 replies

Tryharder · 30/01/2011 11:50

There seems to have been a lot of threads around at the moment along the lines of "my baby is 5 weeks old and still won't sleep through the night" and "my baby won't go 4 hours between feeds, is she just greedy" or "my baby wants to be picked up a lot - is she just manipulative?" You get the picture....

Have just read a post about someone who left a very young baby to cry it out (don't ask me to link) and they are all smug about it because "it worked".

It makes me so cross and sad for the babies concerned who are subject to draconian regimes. Why are we so negative about babies in this country and so determined from Day one to impose on them a routine that makes our lives convenient, not theirs.

I know I will be flamed Sad.

OP posts:
BennyMoore · 02/02/2011 12:33

Octavia09, I read somewhere that babies /toddlers should not wear shoes till they are walking to avoid damage to the developing bones on the feet, which makes sense to me. If that kid has not yet started walking then the mother did the right thing but should have covered the poor child wit a blanket. I find that a lot of booties are difficult to put on a baby and often falls off.

Octavia09 · 02/02/2011 12:53

BennyMoore, there are very good shoes for babies and toddlers. That kid is a toddler, may be one-year-old. I know there are bad fitted shoes but there are also very good for a very good price as well as warm socks which the kid did not wear, just very thin socks. May be the mum doing that thinks her kid will grow up very strong. But to me it is cruel. It is winter outside.

BennyMoore · 02/02/2011 13:04

Yep, is cruel and irresponsible.

londonlottie · 02/02/2011 13:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

containher · 02/02/2011 13:41

Bubblemummy- The very reason I was in full time employment as a trouble shooter Nanny, was for the very reason that SOME babies don't work out a reasonable routine themselves. SOME children that were fed on demand and rocked and carried to sleep were STILL waking every two- three hours throughout the night. I went to families with lots of two,three and four year olds ( and one with a 5 year old) waking almost hourly, as they were in such pattern of feeding that they had learnt to snack throughout the night, and if they werent hungry, the comfort of a bottle/boob was required to get them back off to sleep. Now for you this disturbance may well be acceptable, certainly some mothers LOVE this total dependance but I was obviously called out to desperate families in need of help who wnated to be able to sleep for longer than 2 hours at a time. Parents of children who hadn't 'worked it out themselves' .

As I said before , many babies do naturally increase times between feeds ( my last baby for instance) but there are those that don't.
I have a young large family, I don't have grandparents to help nearby and so to organise 6 children and be at places on-time and have them all fed and clean clothed and have the energy to play with them and take them out and about to various activites, my babies have been put into a routine, with not much opposition. They still got breast fed at regular intervals, they werent left hungry and screaming as tiny babies- but I also didn't shove my breast in their face evrey time they made a noise, they got carried around on my back in a sling all day until they were 1 year old but they were also left to go to sleep alone in there cots at sleep times that suited me and after the age of 12 weeks I never fed them to get them to sleep and all but one of them accepted my imposed routine with no upset- (one of them 'fought' his sleep regardless of whether he was in my arms, in a car seat, in a pushchair! etc)
I often hear parents at playgroup and friends with small children telling their toddlers " well you didn't let mummy get any sleep last night so I am too tired to do (whatever) " or " Why were you awake all night - you must stop waking up".
They complain to their friends about what a terrible sleeper their child is, in front of the child. To me this is unfair, this must damage the poor childs' self esteem and it isn't thier fault. If the parent hasn't given the child the gift of self-reliance in terms of sleep, then they shouldn't be blaming the poor child for their unbroken sleep!

varicoseveined · 02/02/2011 13:55

I found the No Cry Sleep Solution or night weaning using Dr Jay Gordon's methods very helpful and went from BF to sleep to DD sleeping independently without much grief :)

minervasmom · 02/02/2011 16:07

I detest this culture of controleld crying and scheduled feeding that permeates everything. It fact my in-laws and DH were so blinkered about it, I had to fight to BF my underweight-at-birth baby girl. She needed feeding, I needed to build my supply.

I still have this short video MIL shot of tiny DD crying in DH's arms, rooting around for mummy, trying to feed from his arm, desperately hungry. And I was in the next room, crying as well, because my baby needed me, because my boobs were engorged... Sad

BUT they would NOT let me have her because "she needs a routine" i.e. feed only at designated breakfast, lunch and dinner times (at 2 months?) And not any time in between. Sad

It makes me want to cry just writing about it, 2 years later. I did however, fight back, until I proved that BF on-demand was the best way - she gained weight, grew taller, slept thru the night (when Mummy let her, I insisted on feeding her every 3 hrs until she was well on her way to topping every baby scale).

Octavia09 · 02/02/2011 17:13

londonlottie, I would not let my babies sleep in another room at 4 months old. I would rather let my snoring husband sleep in another room who was not very helpful anyway than the babies. I just loved all their sounds. Of course I wanted to sleep but I needed to be with them in one room. Did they sleep through the night from the 4th months or was your partner helping you by takig care of them so you could sleep? In my case I was the one who was feeding them during the night as well.

minervasmom, I do understand what you say. My in laws also tried to manipulate me through my DH (who was becoming blind wherever they came over) but I did not let them do it.

containher · 02/02/2011 17:19

Minervasmom- I am from the 'routine' camp- but That is taking routine to the extreme- I would certainly not advocate such a regime so young and certainly not for an underweight baby. It sounds like a horrible experience for you and baby.

Chocolateporridge · 02/02/2011 21:07

The goal of a routine should be a happy baby, not a mum with lots of free time. However babies are definitely happier when their mummies are not mega-stressed and totally sleep deprived!!!

I don't know if it's down to my efforts to structure a semblance of routine from day one or to my dd being so good but she's slept 9 hours minimum every night since she was 3 weeks old, she eats, plays, sleeps every 3 hours and very rarely cries when she's put down for a nap. The thing is, I also make sure that my routine includes LOTS of play time with her.

She's a very happy little thing and I'm a happy mummy, whereas my friends who went down the baby led route are still waking 3 times a night to feed a baby that is cranky through the day time too - I know which I prefer :)

spotofcheerfulness · 02/02/2011 21:18

Chocolate porridge Envy.

BennyMoore · 02/02/2011 21:29

Sorry Choco, dont think a baby of that age would have be able to learn a structured routine. I think you are one of the lucky mothers. But I know the majority will argue that its down to their routines.

AngelDog · 02/02/2011 21:32

I agree with the OP's OP (not read all the rest of the thread). We're still very much in a 'children should be seen & not heard' mentality in this country IMO - we don't really seem to like them very much. Sad

I don't think routines are bad, but it's sad when the baby is made to suffer for the parents' convenience.

FWIW, I do have quite a set 'routine' with my 13 m.o., and have done for the last 6 months, but that's because it suits him, and helps me meet his needs for sleep etc, not because I think he 'should' have one.

I found the No-Cry Sleep Solution ideas really helpful too.

porcamiseria · 02/02/2011 21:40

Chocolateporridge

you are LUCKY!!!! thats all, lucky. dont kids yourself that its your wonderful parenting that makes her sleep 9 hours.

maybe yours econd will be a bad sleeper!

mathanxiety · 02/02/2011 21:43

'We're still very much in a 'children should be seen & not heard' mentality in this country IMO - we don't really seem to like them very much.'

AngelDog, I agree 100% with that. It's only when you go somewhere else that you see the difference a fundamentally different mindset makes.

porcamiseria · 02/02/2011 21:49

marthamay, me too! I am thinking of giving my 5 months old a 3 course meal at midnight to avoid his hungry waking at 3, 5.....

all my own fault probably.....

mumsgotatum · 02/02/2011 21:53

YANBU.....I am just one of those parents who never left their DC's to cry when babies. When they are really little, like newborn to 6 months, of course they want to be close to you always. And maybe things were a little more difficult for me, and things take a little longer like getting my DS to sleep on his own but that's just what came naturally to me. When they were 6 months and starting weaning is when I put in a loose routine...but i'd still not leave them to cry

ChillyBilly · 02/02/2011 22:43

minervasmom - I went through similar. I feel so sorry for you (both then and now).

My experience makes me feel sick with anger, even now (over 5 years on).

mamaLou13 · 02/02/2011 23:04

MoonUnitAlpha I am in total agreement with you! why people feel the need to force their babies to stop breastfeeding early and become independent, not co- sleeping etc... its beyond me! i prefer the more natural approach to parenting .... obviously certain things are neccasery in order to not be totally sleep deprived and for work / study commitments but i believe the more time you spend bonding with your baby the better it will turn out! there is no problem with your baby needing you and wanting to be close to you akk the time... these are precious moments which we will never EVER get again so in my opinion ... treasure every second of it!! our little beautiful ones are more than worth the extra effort! (o:

Original poster
Tryharder · 02/02/2011 23:15

Minervasmom and Chilly....Sad

You mean people actually physically separated you from your babies and wouldn't let you go to them.....That has made me come out in goose bumps.

How did you forgive your DH for that Minerva?

OP posts:
londonlottie · 02/02/2011 23:28

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

AngelDog · 02/02/2011 23:34

I agree with MUA, that lack of support & having to deal single-handed with all the babycare is a big part of the problem too. Things like co-sleeping, babywearing etc would be much easier if it didn't all have to be done by one person on their own without much help.

AliGrylls · 02/02/2011 23:44

therepotato - in reply to your post:

You are talking about your DD who rarely feeds at night. DS2 is 3 months and he still needs to feed at least once over night. This I believe is more normal than a baby sleeping from 7 to 7 the next day with only one 10 pm feed. Also isn't a baby sleeping through the night defined as being 6 hours in one go.

The main reason why children wake up is for the reasons you state (unless the parents have actually made a categorical decision to allow their baby to sleep ridiculously during the day). Also, DS1 suffered from really bad reflux which has put me in the frame of mind for number 2 that I promised myself so long as he was feeding well I would never complain.

I agree that parents do have high expectations of babies. I don't think babies need a rigid routine to get them to sleep at the right times.

mathanxiety · 03/02/2011 05:44

AngelDog, I think in my case it would have been much easier to do it on my own than with then H, now exH, and his cockeyed notions (similar to Minervasmum's and Chili's ILs') and his snoring and his refusal to believe that a newborn babies weren't 'manipulating' me by crying at night. He was insanely jealous of the babies imo.

ExMIL barked at me to sit down and ignore little crying DD1 and eat my dinner when she was two days old and MIL had come to 'help'. I got up and ignored her -- I think I was the only person who ever dared defy that woman. I an really thankful that we didn't live anywhere near her and I didn't have to deal with the stress of her interference all the time. Dealing with her son was bad enough.

She bragged to me that she had never once got up in the night for any of her seven babies. They slept in the hospital nursery at night for the two weeks she was there (way back when) each time, and after they came home she slept soundly in her own bed and the babies slept (or not) in a separate room at the other side of the house.

theresapotatoundermysink · 03/02/2011 08:44

AliGrylls, I don't really understand what your post has to do with what I said. All I'm saying is my baby does not feed through the night and has gained weight perfectly, and she is an EBF 7 month old who refuses food, so I must be doing something right. You saying that if you don't feed a baby at night they won't gain weight is a generalisation which is not true for my child and won't be true for many other babies.

Swipe left for the next trending thread