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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to go of a friend who has just been on a sex tourist trip to Thailand?

457 replies

Hairyjumper · 29/01/2011 01:18

Single male friend, just been on 2 weeks holiday where he paid women to fuck him.
Have had quite a cerebral discussion with him about it.
He says it is not seedy , no pimps blah blah.

I thought I was open minded but it just seems wrong.

OP posts:
HerBeX · 01/02/2011 23:10

Well yes it's always wrong because the plain fact is, you won't know. The probability is very high that it is coerced prostitution and if you ask a prostituted woman straight out if she is doing it voluntarily, she will say yes because that is what you want to hear and she is there to tell you what you want to hear and to pretend to feel things she doesn't feel.

Best not to take the risk that it's coerced, because it's likely to be.

AnyFucker · 01/02/2011 23:11

Yes, hj, I do believe it is always wrong

will you remain friends with him ?

Original poster
Hairyjumper · 01/02/2011 23:12

LMHF do we just repeat ourselves back and forth? I will never consider him scum, no matter how often you tell me I must. I think he acted in a scummy way.

You can feel free to add me to your list of scum, if that fits with your maths

OP posts:
begonyabampot · 01/02/2011 23:14

HJ -

I dislike all prostitution and porn (even though I can be turned on by it and there can be a sort of fascination) as I can't get my head round the argument that it's harmless and the peoples choice who do it. I just find it all tacky and sad.

In regards to Thailand the balance of power seems even more skewed as the people are so poor and there is no choice at all for the many who become involved in the industry especially those who started as children. It worries me that many men who normally would find this repugnant at home can find it acceptable in a foreign country and i think there can only be some kind of racism at play here where they view these women and children as 'lesser' people somehow. I think there is a culture shock in action but men don't often want to think too deeply about these things, especially when it involves their pleasure /casual sex and consequencies.

pickgo · 01/02/2011 23:19

OP, I admire your commitmento judging the sin not the sinner.

I suppose the difficulty would be though, believing (as you say he's intelligent and a nice person) that firstly, it didn't occur to him that a poor, exploited Thai prostitute would say she was having a good time because she's (or he's) economically dependent on the tourists, or threatened by a pimp if she loses the trick. And secondly, that as you've pointed out some of the issues surrounding prostitution, he doesn't then choose to repeat his behaviour.

In other words would you continue to offer your friendship to someone engaged in acts that are so detrimental to other people?

Andre1960 · 01/02/2011 23:20

Mists "Please be assured Andre that the "What about the Menz?" argument is hardly a new one."

I wasn't making a 'what about anything' argument. I was saying that abusers don't have tattoos on their foreheads marking them out, and are probably quite nice if you're not being abused by them.

What is not a new argument about abuse is to deny it, cover it up, make jokes about it, trivialise it, mock or blame the victims, excuse the abuser, call it something else, etc.

begonyabampot · 01/02/2011 23:20

The other thing I don't get is how can men know (more for this country) that the prostitute they are paying isn't being forced, isn't some sex slave tricked form Europe, isn't someone who was horribly abused as a child - you'd think all these possibilities would be enough to dull their desire for a quick shag. Unfortunately - seems not. There needs to be a lot more education to boys (and girls) in school about how some people live and why they do what they do to survive.

Original poster
Hairyjumper · 01/02/2011 23:20

Thanks AF for answering the straight question without mocking me for asking it. I am genuinely interested in the replies and not in diverting attention away from the topic of Thai sex tourism in particular.

WIll I remain friends with him? No, because I can't really get past this. Not because I see him as "Scum" ( i don't ) but because it is just such a huge mind fuck that a nice guy could think this is ok.

OP posts:
LittleMissHissyFit · 01/02/2011 23:22

I would HJ, I wouldn't have a sex tourist as a friend, no matter how 'lovely' a friend he appeared.

Perhaps because I can spot seedy myself and wouldn't have it anywhere near me or my family.

You say your friend who went to Thailand and paid women to fuck him, is feeding you a cock and bull pile of shite about it being decent and not seedy at all (if he has to say it, it's over justification and trust me it's not OK)

He literally didn't give a fuck if the woman was pimped or not, he got his rocks off and is spewing a pile of lies to you to justify it.

If you choose to swallow it, more fool you.

You can tell a lot about a person by the company she keeps. Another one? If you lie down with dogs, you are going to get fleas.

A man that has to pay for people to fuck him is not a good person. A person who travels to a poor country to pay someone to fuck him is called a sex tourist, and is NOT a good person, he is a person to avoid. Like the plague.

Carry on defending him, as is your right, doesn't make him, or you look any better for it.

I feel for you, I really do, your sense of loyalty is amazing, but it will not do you any favours at all long term.

Original poster
Hairyjumper · 01/02/2011 23:22

As Hester puts it, I could never look at him the same way

OP posts:
HerBeX · 01/02/2011 23:24

Unfortunately lots of "nice guys" think this is OK.

It's the sense of entitlement, which is backed up by the porn culture and the rest of the media now, which has defined visiting prostitutes as a choice issue, rather than a moral one.

TBH this guy knows what he's done is wrong. He chooses to believe the "this is the one person in the whole of the sex industry who isn't being coerced" line, because if he didn't believe it, he would have to face up to himself. And when you're like him, why would you want to face up to yourself?

notjustapotforsoup · 01/02/2011 23:26

It's not that they don't know, begon, it's that they don't care or that's what they go for. Even if I make the leap that they are so emotionally illiterate that they buy all the crap that is fed to them and enter fully into the cognitive dissonance that this one is different, that doesn't buy a get out of jail free card.

pickgo · 01/02/2011 23:26

Ahhh Hairy Jumper I think you've hit the nail on the head - not just a mindfuck - but willingly self-delusional and hypocritical...not a very nice person perhaps when you really get to know him?

Katey1010 · 01/02/2011 23:27

If he is a lovely, gentle, moral etc. etc. man... why does he have to pay a woman to be with him? There are plenty of women in this country who are looking for a man like that. Maybe he prefers to pay and therefore know what he is buying. Because if I am not in the mood for sex, or don't fancy a particular act at a particular time, I just tell my husband so. He knows that is how our relationship is set up. How was their 'relationship' set up? Not like that. So, if she didn't want to do something, there would be more pressure on her to do it. It was paid for, after all. That is the essence of the problem. That IS coercion, however you want to dress it up.

You started this saying that he paid 'women' so did have have to try a few out before he hired his girlfriend? I can't fit that into my head and make it fit comfortably.

I don't think that a person is scum because they do scummy things. I do think they should stop doing them though.

If I buy a diamond and look at the lovely shop and the happy salespeople and the beautiful display, I would never guess at the exploitation under it all unless I was informed. You, and by extension, he should consider yourselves informed.

It might look nice (I have spent time there) but it is not. I used to go to a particular bar in the afternoon with a female friend. The girls there hung out with us, practiced English and liked us being there because we made the place look 'safe' for Western men. The change that came over them when the men started coming in later was horrible. They went from chatting normally to us to fawning over the men. They suddenly forgot how to play pool and became infantilised. None of the men saw this. So, please don't tell me that your friend looked around and picked nice prostitution, there isn't any.

AnyFucker · 01/02/2011 23:29

HJ...I wouldn't be able to get past it either

Which was really the question in your original post, wasn't it ?

You musn't feel attacked though, these types of threads always provoke very strong feelings and cause side-arguments between individuals

I totally understand that, and you must realise that too

Have seen bloody dozens of 'em, tbh and they always make for unpleasant reading

because the whole thing is so fucking awful

Will you tell your (ex) friend exacly why you can no longer accept his friendship ?

Original poster
Hairyjumper · 01/02/2011 23:29

HerBex, I genuinely do NOT think he thinks it is wrong. HE actually feels really hurt that he shared this fairly private stuff with me and got the response I gave .

I have recommended this man to a couple of single friends!!!

OP posts:
HerBeX · 01/02/2011 23:34

No of course he doesn't HJ.

It would destroy his self-image, if he thought he'd done something wrong.

Original poster
Hairyjumper · 01/02/2011 23:34

Katey, yes, my intelligent , gentle, romantic friend is genuinely deluded .

OP posts:
Original poster
Hairyjumper · 01/02/2011 23:34

recommended BEFORE all this, to clarify

OP posts:
AnyFucker · 01/02/2011 23:34

ugghhh

un recommend him, sharpish !

AnyFucker · 01/02/2011 23:35

perhaps he sees himself as a knight in shining armour, making these girls lives better < boak >

AnyFucker · 01/02/2011 23:36

Gawd save us from romantic men

they are some of the most stupid of the male sex

HerBeX · 01/02/2011 23:37

Kate makes a v. good poitn actually - if he's so lovely, why does he need to pay a woman to be with him, when most women out there are looking for a lovely guy.

I mean, how many dating sites say: "I am looking for a self-centred, abusive bastard with a preposterous sense of entitlement as my self-esteem is currently too high and I need it lowered a bit". They don't. They say "Looking for someone gentle, kind, thoughtful etc" - all the things you described your friend as being.

And OMG that technique of being hurt and betrayed and offended becasue you're disgusted by his behaviour. Like because he's told you about it, you have to sanction it and tell him it's OK and if you question it, you've done him a wrong. What a manipulator.

Original poster
Hairyjumper · 01/02/2011 23:38

AF, will I tell him?
There is no need, as we say round here "the ball's burst".

If he asks, I am happy to tell him in more detail.

I am not sure if I have expressed properly - he is really quite distressed that I think the way I do about this! He is genuinely sad it has come between us, and does not understand my revulsion as he sees it as coming from a standpoint of ignorance

OP posts:
pickgo · 01/02/2011 23:39

OP I don't think you are being unreasonable in expecting your friend to regret his actions or show some concern for the people he has exploited. The fact that he doesn't is a betrayal of your trust in him as a decent human being.

I think you're going to have to have a quiet word with the friends you've recommended him to. Not easy.

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