to go of a friend who has just been on a sex tourist trip to Thailand?

[Hairyjumper]

Single male friend, just been on 2 weeks holiday where he paid women to fuck him.
Have had quite a cerebral discussion with him about it.
He says it is not seedy , no pimps blah blah.

I thought I was open minded but it just seems wrong.

LMHF he is NOT scum, he has engaged in scummy behaviour. We parents of all people know the difference

'He traveled to a country well-known for its abusive 'sex industry' where ALL the prostitutes start as children.'

How can you make such a sweeping statement - there is is no way on earth you can guarantee that - to make statements like this just weakens the rest of your points.

Earlier some posters insisted that all men who pay for sex in Thailand are rapists and only go there to have sex with little girls and boys. Well times must be lean for the very many of age ladies I saw there looking for business as obviously there is no demand for them. TBH, you don't even have to go looking for it, even I was propositioned constantly. At least tell it as it is, none of this takes away how horrible and abusive this situation is but people here keep misrepresenting what often goes on and just want to insist that all these men are rapists and only there to have sex with underage children. How are you going to get anyone to take your arguments seriously and listen to what you have to say.

thanks for answering my question, hj

The thing is, people are always amazed by the fact that people can be really good in one area of their lives and shitbags in another.

Julian Assange is a good example. As is Roman Polanski - great films but he's a child rapist. Lots of abusive men, are charming, kind, give to charity etc.

It's difficult to get your head round. And of course, mainstream society has a vested interest in pretending that abusive men are somehow different from other men and cut off from them in their monstrous lifestyles and practices. When in fact, the only difference is that they have an unwarranted sense of entitlement, which normal non-abusive men don't have, that they are entitled to use other people (generally women) as they want.

And because we live in a mysogynist society, lots of wider social attitudes back them up in this entitlement.

HerBex, thank you. Fortunately very few people , least of all my friend have tried to tell me I am uptight.
I am glad most of you have confirmed my feelings.

I repeat, that attack of those outwit the majority view does nothing for the majority argument

Now I have to deal with how I see him,and where I go from here in the relationship (if any ) I go in to have with him , which none of you can help me with.

And be assured attacking me for even CONSIDERING any contact with this BEAST is not helpful at all.

Hexbex, very thought provoking .

Begony, that is exactly what I would have said if I was as eloquent as you.
AF, you're welcome.

To everyone - do you think ALL prostitution is morally repugnant and should be stopped?

I was actually expecting far more people to defend the right of "sex workers" to make a living in any way they choose, if the parameters are right.

(and my friend thinks much prostitution is wrong but he sought out a form where the parameters were, to him, right)

did he say why he thought the Thai scenario parameters were "right" but others not ?

Ditany, I am not manipulating anyone, and nor am I whining ;would you kindly stop attacking me.

Perhaps you would like to re read my responses to see which side of the fence I fall on.

I am genuinely interested. I have always thought prostitution in all its forms was wrong but it seems my view is not that common.

Do people really think that these men will respond to reasoned argument with "Oh, yeah, I didn't know that paying disadvantaged women for sex was wrong and I'll stop doing it and campaign against it" or "You don't know what you're talking about - she's doing it out of choice and she told me she loves her job. Besides, she saw me for free on my last night, so it's not really prostitution. You're just bitterlike all western women."?

HerBeX "Lots of abusive men, are charming, kind, give to charity etc"

You shouldn't be amazed. There are surprisingly high estimates of psychological and physical abuse committed by women against their partners (men and women) and children. Although it's an under-reasearched area, it's probable that some of your female friends are abusers but give to charity and are great to go out with.

OP - I don't think it needs to be that complicated.

In the bible it says 'love thy neighbour' and advocates the 'golden rule' - treat others as you'd like to be treated.

At the bottom of your friend's thinking is a basic lack of compassion. Can he not imagine being born in a country so poor that allowing yourself to be sexually exploited is the only way to survive? Or could he imagine being sold into sex slavery by your own parents and growing up in that life?

ALL prostitution is morally repugnant because it exploits the most vulnerable who suffer acts which demean them, treating them as a sexualised 'meat' rather than feeling, thinking human beings. And the worst of it is they have to pretend to enjoy it.

Punters who pay for sex (including the disabled ffs - they are responsible for themselves you know) further this exploitation.

Dittany, you are the first to bang on constantly in every thread you hijack about how abusive and bullying men are - i see your behaviour on Mn to be worryingly similar. Why do you always twist what people are saying, add a fair dose of outrageous and shocking claims and have to control people? I think Andre understands you more than you probably want to acknowledge which is why you wouldn't engage him. You constantly hound people on threads but don't like it when it's turned on you for a change.

Please be assured Andre that the "What about the Menz?" argument is hardly a new one.

No, Dittany simply operates from a position that abuse of women is wrong. And gives no corner to those who try and weasal-word their way around that issue. And I, for one, wholeheartedly support her in that.

AF, yes, he did, the bit in the OP about it not being seedy , no pimps , her being an adult women, blah blah.

I nearly fell off my chair, and when I argued against this ( How do you know there are no pimps? How do you know how the circumstances under which the woman took up prostitution? Why in God's name would you want to have sex with someone who was doing it for money? How can you exploit someone so economically disadvantaged for your sexual gratification ? etc ) he was very offended and pointed out that he was there and I wasn't and he can spot seediness and coercion and would have no part in it. That there are all different

Please don't anyone waste any time in arguing against his points, really, there is no need

sorry, missed out a bit. He says there are all different strands of prostitution over there, and he sought out the "decent " sort.

(again, please, no one bother to argue against this)

Th same argument is made about prostitution in this country, which is why I asked the broader question ( is it ALWAYS wrong)

Yes, I do think all prostitution is wrong. Some forms more wrong than others. The intrinsic and unavoidable power dynamics involved with the Thai sex trade make it almost as wrong as its possible to get, IMO.

I also think that the sexual exploitation of women is so ingrained in our culture, and the domination of women so inscribed within our sexuality, that it is quite possible and common for men who are apparently decent, gentle etc, to abuse women and convince themselves that they are not doing so.

So I don't think your dilemma is that unusual, HJ. And I do feel sorry for you: it is really horrible when you find out that someone you love is capable of not doing terrible things. I've been there myself. And, with the wider society forgiving and condoning what he's done, it must ffeel very po-faced/punitive/pointless to punish him for what he's done. You must be thinking: he's a good guy generally, I can do more good by staying friends with him and gently persuading, than just cutting him out of my life.

And that may be right. But personally, I couldn't do it. Not just because staying friends with a man who had done this would make a complete mockery of everything I have believed in for over quarter of a century. But, more pertinently, because I would never be able to trust him, look at him in the same way, or forget what had happened. It would poison our friendship forever.

I said sex tourists are scum. they are. Try telling anyone they are not. you can't.

your friend went to Thailand as a tourist to pay women to fuck him.

Ergo, he is a Sex Tourist.

You do the maths....

pickgo, I share your view completely . Especially the bit about having to pretend to enjoy it.