to think that children shouldn't be screaming and running around in a library?

[PeeringIntoAFestiveVoid]

I have a feeling I'm going to get toasted to a perfect 'well done' shade of brown here....

I went to the library with DD today, and as we came in, there was a woman with a pushchair standing at the desk. As I was returning our books (not at the desk) and browsing, there were two children running around, screaming and shouting - the younger boy looked about three, the older boy five or so. They seemed to be with the mum at the desk, as she occasionally ssshhhed them (of which they took no notice at all). There was an older boy who looked to be six or seven, who joined in with the shouting and running from time to time, but wasn't causing the same chaos as the littler ones. The toddler had an utterly ear piercing shriek (I really can't stand shrill noises, so I realise I'm less tolerant of this kind of thing than many people), which he was letting rip frequently and very very loudly. There was a bloke there who I presumed to be their dad, as he sometimes spoke to them and called them over, but they didn't pay any attention at all, and he didn't push it or try to moderate their behaviour.

I joined DD in the children's section, and the two boys were running in and out of that area (then across the library to mum at the desk again). They were fighting, very vociferously, over a bottled drink, a fair bit of which got spilled on the floor. Several books were also knocked onto the floor. A couple of other children were sitting on the covered seats/cushions, and were intimidated by them rolling around, shouting and fighting. I was feeling very and wondered why the staff didn't point out to the mum that this wasn't ok behaviour.

As we checked our books out, the toddler screamed very loudly right behind me. I said "God almighty" and turned round, and the mum was walking past me with all four children. She said "What?? He's only two". I said "They've been running around screaming and fighting for the last twenty minutes. This is a library". She said "I don't care" to which I replied "Clearly; if you cared about other people, you wouldn't let your kids run around screaming and fighting". The woman walked off to the children's section.

I thought about what had happened, and thought maybe I'm completely out of sync with what's acceptable in libraries these days. As I was leaving I went to the desk and said "I know libraries aren't the solemn, silent places of the seventies, and I'm really glad about that, but is that now acceptable behaviour for children in a library? Am I way off the mark on what is ok?". The librarian said that the woman was joining the library, and that she had four children who'd never been in the library before (one was a babe in pushchair, obviously), so they didn't say anything to her. She looked quite at me.

I can see her point, and am wondering whether I was BU to say what I did. But to me, wherever I was I wouldn't let my children run around fighting and emitting ear-splitting shrieks, let alone in a library. I know it's not a sacred sanctum, but a library is supposed to be someone where you can go for peace and quiet to enjoy books.

So AIBU?

No I would say fair play to you for saying something, it is extremely rude of the woman or her partner not to have kept the children quiet.

I kind of agree with you but I am also a bit inwardly cringing as often it's my three doing the running - all 3 love books - the elder 2 fight over the pets section wile the baby tries to eat things and I often find I can;t keep them all together and in check

thankfully it;s a tiny childfriendly library

I think we have swung far away from the days when it was acceptable to tut at noisy children in libraries but I hear you :)

Lime marmalade on my toast

YADNBU. Our library is very laid back - they regularly have music on if it's quiet and it's perfectly acceptable to have a conversation at normal volume, but running around, fighting, shouting and messing about with drinks, absolutely not. If nothing else it's a public space (and soon to be pretty d*mn precious at that) and people using it need to show respect for everyone else who is present.

And if a 2-yo can't handle being there for a long space of time - perfectly understandable - then the parent needs to plan their visit to be short and sweet.

YANBU

I wouldn't expect children to be perfectly behaved but what you describe is wrong in a lot of places especially a library.

Children should learn to enjoy the library for what it is rather than use it as a playground. Where they even looking at the books?

It sounds like the mother wasn't really bothered by her childrens behaviour so its hardly shocking they were acting that way.

Let's hope the children learn what a library is for and learn to sit and enjoy books.
School will help the younger ones understand how to behave, it's why reception is often a feral area for many until after Christmas.
If the parent won't do the socialisation, the teachers will.

I take dgs[22mnths] to Rhyme Time in our library every week and they all sing and clap and listen to a little story-they have to start but should be monitored and controlled.

YANBU

just because the years have passed, doesnt mean it is now acceptable for kids to run around disrupting everyone else in the place..

libraries are still places where people go to study and use the reference books, and not have to put up with unruly kids who are allowed to make lots of noise

a library isnt a playground and the mother should have taken her children outside if she couldnt control them

another place to not go to with my lively toddler

shit, we are housebound bar soft play/friends house/playgroup now!!!!

gordys - Are you me?

porca - you culd join Rhyme time like pranma does - people expect that time to be abit noiseier and people looking for silence would avoid a library then!! I took my DC to the library then and like others have said made others short and sweet - if they didn't behave they didn't get books. They wanted books so behaved! saintly emoticon (until you looked at the hissing mother in the car park threatening that if they didn't behave that would be another trip to the library they wouldn't be getting!! Now at 7 and 8 they love libraries and know how to behave in them. BUt OP - no - I would be p'd off too and would probably have commented as well!!

Porcamiseria I'd have had ever such a lot more sympathy if she'd actually made any concerted effort at all to moderate their behaviour. Other than "D*** don't fight with your brother..." said in the same tone you'd say "Ooh I think it might rain...". If she'd engaged with/diverted/disciplined/temporarily removed them, I wouldn't have felt so I don't think - every child has those moments.

No I don't blame the children, they don't know any better. The older boy joined in from time to time, presumably when he was younger he'd have behaved the same as his younger siblings, but he's learning. So might the others, given some guidance and support about what is acceptable.
It infuriates me in the same way that random vandalism does, similar roots in many cases.
I'm just taking a long term view to avoid screaming.

"It infuriates me in the same way that random vandalism does, similar roots in many cases."

That's what I felt - just a lack of respect for it being a public space, and lack of consideration and respect for others sharing that space. From the parents, obviously.

But the librarians' reaction made me think maybe I'm completely out of sync with what is now deemed ok. I know I'm not the most child tolerant person, so I was interested to see what others thought.

I was thinking about it afterwards, and thinking that England is traditionally not a child-friendly country. I wondered what it would have been like in Italy, or Spain, and thought that someone (an adult using the library) would probably have engaged with the children and distracted them whilst the mum was busy at the desk. It didn't occur to me to do this (mainly because they were so loud and also grubby - in that delightful smeared toddler kind of way ), whereas if it had been a distressed child, then I would have stepped in without hesitation. I guess I was mainly that the mum let it continue, so didn't feel inclined to help. Maybe I should have though.

My grandson, four, runs over to the toy section in our library. I'm glad to see him so excited. but he doesn't scream or fight or all those other things those kids were doing. we are not allowed drinks or food in our library. the father in this case was of no help, was he? I would have been disgusted w this behavior too. they probably act like this in grocery store, target, etc.

I think Porcamiseria 's comment highlights the current thinking in the library community. (if such a thing exists)

They want to encourage people to be comfortable in the library and that means no shhing and so on. It does sound though that what the op experienced today was a bit extreme-some people will always take the piss don't they?

YANBU I think, libraries aren't the silent places they once were thank goodness, but there are limits! You have to respect others be they other quieter children or adults/elderly within earshot.

I wouldn't let my DCs run riot in a supermarket either so just because libraries aren't silent it doesn't mean a free for all.

There's a difference between noise and bad behaviour too.

Have you all enjoyed being judgemental and hopefully you are congratulating yourselves for being the Sort of People who Never Let Your Children Misbehave in Public.

So her kids were noisy and badly behaved in the library [shrugs]. Clearly they are nasty, feral beasts who should be put in Care and the parents forcibly sterilzed.

Poor woman; she wanted to join the library, unfortunately her children were naughty (she's looking after 4) and she was probably already embarrassed and stressed and then you showed up with a face like a smacked arse and had the barefaced cheek to say "God Almighty" just because her toddler shrieked.

Are you teaching your little girl how to be as intolerant and rude as yourself? Sorry but I found the tone of your post quite nasty. Other peoples children are none of your business and I am not surprised the librarian looked at you a bit oddly.

Other people's children are my business.

Having had about 3 elderly ladies glower at me and my 2 year old in shops recently while she was in the throes of a biggie...I think YABU.

Saying God Almghty wasn't helping anyone...the Mother may have been stressed and couldn't cope with telling the kids off AND managing to join the library ..some people find form filling difficult.

In what way, Goblinchild? If you see a child misbehaving, it is up to the parents to deal with it or not as they see fit. Actually, the OP made a good point that in other countries, people might have actually given the woman a hand rather than standing around in silent condemnation with the odd nasty remark thrown in.

You have no idea about this family's situation, perhaps the kids had SN or, perhaps, more likely they were just being naughty. Kids are naughty sometimes, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are always badly behaved or don't know how to behave. I really hate intolerance. We are all mothers - why not cut each other some slack??