to think that children shouldn't be screaming and running around in a library?

[PeeringIntoAFestiveVoid]

I have a feeling I'm going to get toasted to a perfect 'well done' shade of brown here....

I went to the library with DD today, and as we came in, there was a woman with a pushchair standing at the desk. As I was returning our books (not at the desk) and browsing, there were two children running around, screaming and shouting - the younger boy looked about three, the older boy five or so. They seemed to be with the mum at the desk, as she occasionally ssshhhed them (of which they took no notice at all). There was an older boy who looked to be six or seven, who joined in with the shouting and running from time to time, but wasn't causing the same chaos as the littler ones. The toddler had an utterly ear piercing shriek (I really can't stand shrill noises, so I realise I'm less tolerant of this kind of thing than many people), which he was letting rip frequently and very very loudly. There was a bloke there who I presumed to be their dad, as he sometimes spoke to them and called them over, but they didn't pay any attention at all, and he didn't push it or try to moderate their behaviour.

I joined DD in the children's section, and the two boys were running in and out of that area (then across the library to mum at the desk again). They were fighting, very vociferously, over a bottled drink, a fair bit of which got spilled on the floor. Several books were also knocked onto the floor. A couple of other children were sitting on the covered seats/cushions, and were intimidated by them rolling around, shouting and fighting. I was feeling very and wondered why the staff didn't point out to the mum that this wasn't ok behaviour.

As we checked our books out, the toddler screamed very loudly right behind me. I said "God almighty" and turned round, and the mum was walking past me with all four children. She said "What?? He's only two". I said "They've been running around screaming and fighting for the last twenty minutes. This is a library". She said "I don't care" to which I replied "Clearly; if you cared about other people, you wouldn't let your kids run around screaming and fighting". The woman walked off to the children's section.

I thought about what had happened, and thought maybe I'm completely out of sync with what's acceptable in libraries these days. As I was leaving I went to the desk and said "I know libraries aren't the solemn, silent places of the seventies, and I'm really glad about that, but is that now acceptable behaviour for children in a library? Am I way off the mark on what is ok?". The librarian said that the woman was joining the library, and that she had four children who'd never been in the library before (one was a babe in pushchair, obviously), so they didn't say anything to her. She looked quite at me.

I can see her point, and am wondering whether I was BU to say what I did. But to me, wherever I was I wouldn't let my children run around fighting and emitting ear-splitting shrieks, let alone in a library. I know it's not a sacred sanctum, but a library is supposed to be someone where you can go for peace and quiet to enjoy books.

So AIBU?

hey thanks, I didn't mean to hijack the thread and turn it into a pity party for me, just I was already worried about this birthday party and pizza with friends tomorrow so it hit a raw nerve!

For what it's worth I agree that parents should try to control their children in public, but I'd stop short of ripping someone to bits about it in the library as I know how that feels and some people find parenting hard than others, IMO. (although yes, some are just lazy and useless)

"Didnt realise a FRUIT SHOOT was involved "
I only mentioned it was a fruit shoot to explain that it's a squeezy bottle. Note in my OP I referred to 'a bottled drink' to avoid accusations of fruit shoot prejudice ZoeZebraa

Fanjo "did the OP really have to engage with the mother in such a snarky, "rip to shreds" kind of manner, though?"

Thanks Bupcakes - I thought I was 'direct' too. Fanjo The first comment I made, I was being forthright, but I don't think I was snarky. When she said "I don't care" then I did probably venture a bit more into 'ripping to shreds' territory.

As I said upthread, in retrospect I wish I'd been a bit more helpful and spoken to/distracted the children at the time. The guy I assumed to be the dad was standing away from the mum, and could see what the kids were up to in the children's section. He must have left at that point, as I didn't see him again and he wasn't with the mum, I don't think, when I spoke to her. I don't know why on earth he didn't round them up and occupy them or take them outside.

I'm just glad to read that I'm not the only parent whose children sometimes do not behave perfectly when we go to the library. On the other hand children learn by example generally, and when there are adults talking loudly, chatting on their mobiles as if no one else is there or,as in my local library once, three men discussing oral sex while myself and my two children were stood close to them. How do they learn to be considerate towards others when often adults themselves are inconsiderate to others? And don't get me started on how rude OAP's can be towards kids!!

There just are some parents who think it's okay for their kids to take over, no matter where they are. It's seriously annoying but I don't think parents like that will ever change, they don't seem to 'get' that not everyone is delighted and charmed to be breathing the same air as the dcs

I agree. There are a number of said parents who are like that at our local library. However, I do seem to remember talking to a friend of mine at the counter (not loudly) and being asked to take our conversation elsewhere by the librarian so perhaps I'll slink off now and reflect on my behaviour!!lol

Blimey - can't the librarians call Social Services if the place is teeming with abandoned children They must surely have a policy of children under the age of x must be accompanied by an adult.

OP - YANBU because of the Fruit Shoot spilling incident alone, never mind the rest of the antics.

The 'abandoned children' being the ones mentioned earlier whose parents had left them there while they went shopping by the way, not the ones the OP was talking about.

I still want to know where this library-cum-creche in the Midlands is. So I can drop DS there whilst I go and peruse TopShop.

I was going to post something similar a while back but thought I'd get flamed.

I LOVE seeing children in libraries. It is so important for them to be exposed to books from early on and learn that libraries are enjoyable places to be.

But my tolerance was pushed to its limits a couple of weeks ago when a dad came in with his two boys and they proceeded to run the length of the room and take flying leaps onto the bean bags. It was in the children's section of the library but they were really damaging what are really nice beanbags for the little kids to sit on. We have such a lovely children's library and with the cuts that are happening it seemed like such a shame to wear out the library's resources by jumping on them. The dad did nothing to stop them and it made me so

It's annoying, but if the mother was never taken to a library as a child then how would she have learnt how to behave in one herself? Perhaps she would assume that you would carry on in much the same way as you would in the queue for the swimming pool.

To be fair, it was only a week or so ago that there was a thread about Bookstart being cancelled, libraries probably going to be full of a lot more people who have never used them before (and don?t know how to behave).

As for children screaming, I have always hated it, I still hate it and to my horror my daughter did it when she was two (for a very limited period until I taught her not too). The only thing worse than her scream was the occasional completely intolerant reaction from another parent, then again in my defence I probably wouldn't have fuelled the fire with a fruit shoot.

Libraries have of course altered a lot since I escaped the womb.

They can no longer be like they were because of mixed age range amongst users

I am said to be a "beacon of good behaviour" But not by everyone. "gabby"

Do they have libraries on your planet, Gabby?

I had thought that maybe the mother didn't know how to behave in a library either, though I would have thought fighting and knocking things over and spilling sugary drinks wasn't exactly acceptable behaviour in any public place (queue for swimming pool etc).

I loved the local library when I was a kid, and one of the nice things about it was that it was a space free of children like that (the aggressive, noisy, badly-behaved bullies) who made my life a misery at school! Clearly not the case any more. Maybe it's better not to drag children to libraries when they don't want to go or are too young to understand, the ones who actually want to be there are likely to behave better.

I don't think an adult would have to 'learn' how to behave in a library. It is usually quite obvious when you walk in the door that they are relatively quiet places where children are expected to be reasonably well behaved.

Seriously, what sort of life have you led if you don't realise that a library isn't a place for hosting a cage wrestling match between your DCs? This is the best hypothetical situation I have heard on MN for excusing twattish behaviour; the mother did not know how to behave in a library. LOL. I will put that one in the book

Personally speaking, if they really were kicking off, I would have waited until the mother was sufficiently disengaged, and then told the children off. But then I am an ex-teacher and I have bee programmed to take unruly offspring in hand and lead them to the light ...

I do find that saying things like, "You are letting your mother down, what do you think you are doing, making all this noise in a library?" reduces the likelihood of said mother bashing you over the head with her handbag as well. I am often to be found in supermarkets saying things like, "You heard your mother, do as she says and sit nicely in that trolley," which seems to work without causing a diplomatic incident, and sometimes even gets the other mother saying thank you, at which point I say something like, "It's OK, I know how tiring that behaviour can be" or some such.

Doesn't anyone ever tell you to keep your beak out, BoffinMum? Where I live, that kind of behaviour would earn you a hospital dinner

YANBU I definitley agree with the OP. I have always made sure my children behave when we go to the library. If they behaved like that and I couldn't control them I wouldn't even take them to the library, I'd be too embarrassed.

yanbu
makes me glad I don't go to libraries anymore.

I was not excusing the behaviour as such, or saying that is ok to let your children run amok at the leisure centre, but if this had been a thread about the incident occurring in the queue for swimming while the mother opened a swim membership it probably wouldn't be on the MN topic of the day board and attracted the same attention. I am saying that it is entirely possible that some people will not see libraries as relatively quiet places, they will probably view them in much the same way as any other public place and carry on as 'normal' (whatever their 'normal' is).

Keep up the good work, BoffinMum.

If anyone tells you to keep your beak out, ignore.

When I was young it was accepted that any adult could correct a misbehaving child. Why did that change?

But that's our point. Everyone knows that library are quiet places where people are reading, studying, choosing books. I've never been to a mosque but I know you don't let your kids tear around the place shouting and screaming.

Excellent point, swanandduck.

FWIW, I do think that people should be able to reasonably reprimand children. Just not that many of today's parents are willing to let their little princesses/princes be told off by anyone, usually including themselves.

BoffinMum.. you are a braver woman than I

Its a pity you are an ex-teacher, and not a current one.

And as for the mother perhaps not realising a library was a quiet place for calm behaviour... errr yeah right...

I would have thought unless a place was specifically for childrens fun( park, play area beach etc etc), nowhere is suitable for that sort of carry on.

But seriously, how do you know for a fact, that 100% of the adult population (i.e. everyone) is aware of how to behave in a library? Where are the actual facts and stats to back this up? I'm sorry but I don't think everyone does know, if HV's are going to be recommending more mothers to libraries because Bookstart has gone libraries may get noisier!