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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think that children shouldn't be screaming and running around in a library?

378 replies

PeeringIntoAFestiveVoid · 06/01/2011 21:32

I have a feeling I'm going to get toasted to a perfect 'well done' shade of brown here.... Grin

I went to the library with DD today, and as we came in, there was a woman with a pushchair standing at the desk. As I was returning our books (not at the desk) and browsing, there were two children running around, screaming and shouting - the younger boy looked about three, the older boy five or so. They seemed to be with the mum at the desk, as she occasionally ssshhhed them (of which they took no notice at all). There was an older boy who looked to be six or seven, who joined in with the shouting and running from time to time, but wasn't causing the same chaos as the littler ones. The toddler had an utterly ear piercing shriek (I really can't stand shrill noises, so I realise I'm less tolerant of this kind of thing than many people), which he was letting rip frequently and very very loudly. There was a bloke there who I presumed to be their dad, as he sometimes spoke to them and called them over, but they didn't pay any attention at all, and he didn't push it or try to moderate their behaviour.

I joined DD in the children's section, and the two boys were running in and out of that area (then across the library to mum at the desk again). They were fighting, very vociferously, over a bottled drink, a fair bit of which got spilled on the floor. Several books were also knocked onto the floor. A couple of other children were sitting on the covered seats/cushions, and were intimidated by them rolling around, shouting and fighting. I was feeling very Hmm and wondered why the staff didn't point out to the mum that this wasn't ok behaviour.

As we checked our books out, the toddler screamed very loudly right behind me. I said "God almighty" and turned round, and the mum was walking past me with all four children. She said "What?? He's only two". I said "They've been running around screaming and fighting for the last twenty minutes. This is a library". She said "I don't care" to which I replied "Clearly; if you cared about other people, you wouldn't let your kids run around screaming and fighting". The woman walked off to the children's section.

I thought about what had happened, and thought maybe I'm completely out of sync with what's acceptable in libraries these days. As I was leaving I went to the desk and said "I know libraries aren't the solemn, silent places of the seventies, and I'm really glad about that, but is that now acceptable behaviour for children in a library? Am I way off the mark on what is ok?". The librarian said that the woman was joining the library, and that she had four children who'd never been in the library before (one was a babe in pushchair, obviously), so they didn't say anything to her. She looked quite Hmm at me.

I can see her point, and am wondering whether I was BU to say what I did. But to me, wherever I was I wouldn't let my children run around fighting and emitting ear-splitting shrieks, let alone in a library. I know it's not a sacred sanctum, but a library is supposed to be someone where you can go for peace and quiet to enjoy books.

So AIBU?

OP posts:
CarmenSanDiego · 07/01/2011 00:05

Ergh, I just got back from a miserable afternoon at the library with my three.

Got told off twice because my toddler wanted to rampage and my ADHD daughter wanted to do ballet. Very difficult trying to control them all and I was doing my best.

I sort of agree that fighting and taking drinks into the library aren't ideal behaviours, but some toddlers are very, very difficult to control, especially if you're trying to fill out forms, hold onto books and talk to the librarian.

I was feeling quite pleased at getting them all organised and out of the house too :(

Trubert · 07/01/2011 00:15

I actually wondered if you were talking about my children when I started reading your post.

My two pre-schoolers do run around libraries. This is why I only stay for 10 minutes while I swap over books.

As others have said, it is hard to control children whilst engaged in another activity such as filling in a form.

Goblinchild · 07/01/2011 00:15

I'm a teacher, so helping children to become literate, numerate, socialised and aware of their responsibilities is part of the job.
Teaching them not to run around screaming, how to treat books and how to enjoy an environment appropriately through helping them understand how much fun they can have in other ways.
But if you're feeling huffy, I'll just slope off back to the sn boards.

Liv77 · 07/01/2011 00:35

Sorry YAB a little U, I am a library assistant and have to say I generally agree with the approach taken by the Librarian you spoke too.
Yes, it would have been nice if she had better control of her children but you don't want someones first experience of the library to be negative. Saying that however, it's a shame the staff weren't a little more pro-active.
Personally I would have intervened if they were spilling things/knocking stuff over. Usually just going and talking to them, giving them free stickers etc works wonders.

If the librarian had told the woman to keep her children quiet then I doubt the woman would have bothered to return with them. Hopefully the children will get better with more visits and once they are used to the environment.

Carmen Sorry to hear you had a bad afternoon at your library.

If it's any consolation my 2 year old DS is so at ease in my library that he never sits still for Rhyme Time and runs off to the next room to play with the toys instead. It's also not uncommon for me to hear shouts of "mum, mum" as he runs around looking for me if he comes in for a visit with his Nan Blush

BuzzLightBeer · 07/01/2011 00:48

So you don't want someones first experience at the library to be negative....so its fine for them to make everyone elses experience negative.

I have 3 including a wild lively toddler, and its not easy bringing them anywhere, but you make a bloody effort to stop them rampaging about like wild animals in a library, especially the older ones. Its a public space, for everyone to enjoy, not just you and your kids.

If you want to be that person that only cares about herself and her own offspring and care not how they upset others then you'll have to get used to getting a few Hmm looks.

charliesmommy · 07/01/2011 00:56

"Trubert Fri 07-Jan-11 00:15:29
My two pre-schoolers do run around libraries. This is why I only stay for 10 minutes while I swap over books.

As others have said, it is hard to control children whilst engaged in another activity such as filling in a form"

why do you allow them to run around?

you wouldnt allow them to run around in a car park, or on the main road, so why allow them to run around in a place where other people may be trying to concentrate?

giraffesCantDirtyDance · 07/01/2011 01:10

Oh phew I thought this was going to be me as 16mo was running around library today - not noisey, but her big sis was reading stories to me and occasionally got a bit loud at exciting bits.

Liv77 · 07/01/2011 01:18

Buzz I did say that personally I would have intervened if they were causing a big disturbance, therefore hopefully cutting down on everyone's negative experience.

Barking at parents to mind their children isn't really smiled upon by library bosses these days. Biscuit

WimpleOfTheBallet · 07/01/2011 07:47

As the poster who works in a library says, it might hae been nice if staff had helped the lady by showing the kids some books or giving stickers...local libraries have an area for quiet study and the reception area isn't it.

TyraG · 07/01/2011 08:07

I'm sorry but if you (general you) can't control your children (within reason) then perhaps you shouldn't be having them.

I make sure my kids behave when we are in restaurants, libraries, etc., as I'm sure others didn't go to the library or restaurant to listen to my kids. I understand when they are overtired and cranky and get whiny and it's hard to keep them in line. However, just letting them run free screaming and annoying other people is just rude.

What happened to raising children to be respectful of those around them?

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 07/01/2011 08:48

People in our library must love me, my DD runs around and is noisy (she is 4 and has severe SN but you wouldn't know it at first sight). I do try to control her to the best of my ability.

Not trying to suggest all the kids in the OP had SN but posts like that are why we hardly ever go to the library now for fear of looks and comments.

Ephiny · 07/01/2011 08:50

I'm torn between thinking it's good that they're going to the library at all, and agreeing completely with the OP. If it was just the toddler squealing I would say YABU, but older children running around and fighting and spilling drinks (which surely they shouldn't have had in the library)? YANBU about that.

It does sound like the parents could have handled things better. For example, if the dad was there as well, couldn't he have taken the boys outside when they started fighting, while the mum finished the form filling?

PlanetEarth · 07/01/2011 09:01

Hate this. Our library staff tend to intervene.

It doesn't necessarily get better when they're older either. One of our local libraries gets problems with older kids (say 10-15) who are on the computers (never the books) and often have no headphones, squabble loudly with each other, chat on their mobiles, swear at staff when they intervene, and eventually get thrown out... till next time Angry.

PlanetEarth · 07/01/2011 09:04

Oh, and said teenagers have been known to watch porn on the library computers Shock. I reported one of them to staff and he was rather surprised when his screen suddenly blanked out.

Laquitar · 07/01/2011 09:12

I would think that they were having a bad day.

3 energetic children, crap weather, perhaps money problems that's why they went to the library as it is free....

If you cant go to the library in a winter day where can you go then?

(btw cafes and restaurants very different as there are hot drinks and its dangerous to run)

Laquitar · 07/01/2011 09:15

But i agree about the teenagers

IAmRubyLennox · 07/01/2011 09:21

YANBU.

Nothwithstanding all the valid points people have made about the difficulty of controlling three young children while you're trying to fill in a form as well, didn't you say there was a man with them that you assumed to be the father?

So surely he could have pulled them into line. Or taken them into the children's section and read to them? Or even (if they really were being horrendous) taken one or two of them out?

LeClaire · 07/01/2011 09:25

I empathise with your feelings, and that yes, some kids can be disruptive. However, I do think we are living in a society that now discourages a child from being able to just express themselves. I agree it can be a bit odd to see a child allowed to misbehave in a public libraby, but who sets these generic rules which we expect our children to adhere to? Maybe they were just excited.:) Children are a long time grown up, and I believe they should be able to express themselves freely, even if it does offend our adult expectations.

curlymama · 07/01/2011 09:26

YANBU.

I see the librarians point, but why is it ok not to want to put her off while at the same time making lots of other people unable to do the thing that they are there for. Other people might be put off using the library if there are screaming kids around.

Yu said there was more than one adult there, the librarian would probably have been able to tell if they were together and should have got one of them to take he screamer outside.

If it was their first visit to the library, the woman must have had plenty of time to expliain to her children about whet is acceptable behavior in libraries, and what the consequences would be if she didn't explain the rules. She was being a lazy parent and very selfish imho.

Original poster
PeeringIntoAFestiveVoid · 07/01/2011 09:34

"then you showed up with a face like a smacked arse and had the barefaced cheek to say "God Almighty" just because her toddler shrieked.

Are you teaching your little girl how to be as intolerant and rude as yourself? Sorry but I found the tone of your post quite nasty. Other peoples children are none of your business and I am not surprised the librarian looked at you a bit oddly."

Actually tryharder my exclamation of "god almighty" was pretty much involuntary - I'm supersensitive to high pitched sounds; they hurt and I find sounds like the shrieking of children/bus brakes/alarms etc unbearable. I wouldn't say my barefaced cheek was any greater than hers was in letting her kids behave like that. I was wondering more whether I should have said what I did after that, which was voluntary.

Regarding your second point, I obviously am teaching DD to be as 'intolerant and rude' as me, as she kept glaring at the two boys and hissing "ssshh, this is a library!" at them. Grin

And I think that anyone's behaviour is my business if they are interfering with my ability to go about my business in a public space, actually. And by your reasoning, my having a face like a smacked arse is clearly none of your, or anyone else's business. Grin

In retrospect, I wish I'd engaged with the children and calmed them down, which would have been helpful to everyone. They were out of the sight line to the desk, so although the librarians could obviously hear them, they couldn't see them when they were fighting. The older one was teasing the toddler by taking his fruit shoot, so the bottle was getting squeezed by both and spilling. The books were being knocked (accidentally) from the table and shelf in the process. Yes, it would have been nice if one of the librarians could have engaged with them. I can totally understand (as I said before) that they want to encourage people to use the library. I hope they gave her a leaflet (as someone mentioned) about acceptable behaviour.

To those of you who said that you felt self conscious about your own 'lively' toddlers in libraries - I think most people (me included) have sympathy when the parent is obviously trying to control the child's behaviour, even if it's not entirely working. I certainly wouldn't be Hmm at a child getting a bit enthusiastically loud whilst reading a story - I'd think that was lovely.

OP posts:
zoezebraa · 07/01/2011 09:49

Oh god, when I started reading this I thought it was about me.

Took dc to our library this week and it took a bit of time getting cards for the new system. ds1 was running around pulling books off the shelf and chasing his friend.

I did tell him off but I also had to give my attention to the desk clerk, YANBU it must have been annoying for other people, but what can you do? its a childrens library and children are not always perfectly behaved.

I think if someone had said that to me I would have been put off returning to the library tbhSad

PlanetEarth · 07/01/2011 09:49

LeClaire, I think just the opposite. We have gone from children being expected to be quiet and do as they were told, to a society where children expect to do as they please.

Sidge · 07/01/2011 09:55

I don't think this sort of behaviour is acceptable in any public place, let alone a library.

Spilling drinks and knocking books around is out of order; certainly with two adults there one of them should have taken control of the situation.

I find this sort of parental apathy really depressing.

gramercy · 07/01/2011 10:00

Yay! Let's hear it for the OP!

OP, you could be me. I DETEST bad behaviour anywhere, but it makes my blood boil when I see kids running round the library. GO TO THE SOFT PLAY PLACE if you want your children to rampage.

Our library has little soft seats for the children to sit in to read. Very nice - except that invariably there is some little tike hurling them around or leaping off them. Actually it did make me laugh a while ago, when a Mummy kept eyeing me and dd and saying in a megaphone voice "Oscar - those books are too easy for you" and "Oscar - shall we choose from the caterpillar section now?". Meanwhile Oscar was busy making a huge tower of the chairs and then launched himself off into the book bins.

IAmRubyLennox · 07/01/2011 10:05

I don't have an issue with children who don't know how to behave in any given situation - they are children, they weren't born with this knowledge and they're learning.

I have a big issue with parents who make absolutely no attempt to correct, guide or teach a child who is behaving inappropriately for their surroundings.