to think that size 12 isn't large?

[wussbird]

Well am I?

Just looked on seraphine.co.uk for a maternity top I saw in a magazine and they have it in small, medium and large.

The large is a size 12-14!

'scrawny' there we go again

Blimey, there are a lot of odd assumptions on this thread. Without even going near the tragic business of people feeling depressed & bad about themselves because of their weight/size:

BMI is a blunt instrument. Very fit people have high BMI because of their muscle density. Matt Roberts is always warning against paying too much attention to BMI.

Skeletons come in different shapes & sizes. There is such a thing as 'big-boned'. The size of a person's feet says nothing about the rest of them.

People's fat distribution varies and it's not possible to alter it significantly without surgery.

There is a 'fat gene'. It was in all the papers recently.

If you're thin and feel the cold badly, you're probably too thin. If you're fat and can't get your knees together, you're probably too fat. Inside of those extremes, you're just you.

Being of the broad-backed swimmer variety myself, I'm quite jealous of all you skinny little things with vast norks! Must be quite hard to run downstairs, though ...

ivykaty - that is the most sensible suggestion! after all, that's what lots of men's clothes have, isn't it - inches/cm rather than random "size". Of course, they do also have S, M, L, XL etc. but they don't have the arbitrary sizes that women do (10,12 etc.)

Here in Australia they have extended the random sizing to include bras. So instead of going for a 38C, I have to ask for a 14C (I think - might be a 16? can't remember). At least the randomness is reduced somewhat - but WHY can't they just use the measurement??

There is no absolute definition of "small" or "large", whether in clothes sizing or anything else.

Well there is size 12 curvy, soft skin, gorgeous and there is size 12 overweight, muffin top, cellulite, etc. The number really does not matter.

Schulte, thank you! Am very bad with body image problems & you made me smile!

Grace, so glad I'm not deluded over the feet & build thing!

Fizz, every size women gets cellulite, its about skin isn't it? Not so much fat? (well, fat is involved byswim?)

I second, third and fourth the option of waist size and length being used to define clothing. A good friend of mine and I are the same size (14). Me, because I am 6ft, and her because she has GG boobs - why on earth are we supposed to fit into the same clothing? Everything is too short on me and too baggy around the waist on her!

As for the changing sizes - the original sizes were defined post-war when people were on rationing. Not surprisingly body shape has changed a bit since then and because there hasn't been a wholesale change in sizing, each manufacturer has modified things at their own rate making sizing almost irrelevant. The whole industry needs a shake up - bring back tailoring! (must be a cheaper way to do it nowadays?)

I really object to this pervasive idea that all women secretly want to be a size 8! It's bollocks.

I'm a 14, happiest 12-14, would never want to be a size 8-10. I would look awful at that size (personally). I honestly do not aspire to be thin, and love having an hourglass figure.

Some people seem to want to deny that this can be possible and think that if you are a size 14 and feel great about yourself you must be in denial. Absurd! Not all of us buy into the fashion magazine bullshit.

It's all about finding your own ideal weight, or "sexy weight" as I used to call it years ago!

I have one friend who looks puffed up (bit like someone mentioned about Aguilera) when she's a 10 and is far better at an 8.

I have another friend who tried and tried, and dieted and gave up alcohol to get to a size 12. She was utterly miserable and definitely lost the voluptuous sparkle that actually made her sooo atractive to men.
Luckily she gave up smoking, some weight cam back and she went to 16 again. Looked better and much more attractive and felt happier.

Ideal weight has nothing to do with dress size... within reason. I doubt anyone is healthy or happy at 22+

"I really object to this pervasive idea that all women secretly want to be a size 8! It's bollocks. "

It is indeed. But some people get off on the idea they're better than other people. That's all it is.

There is definitely a feeling of moral superiority among many women who are perpetually thin. There seems to be two schools of thought:

Either they work very hard for it, thus proving that we could all do it if only we had more self control, and self-respect

Or they don't so any work for it whatsoever, and manage to eat what they want including chocolate and chips, thus proving beyond reasonable doubt that the rest of us must therefore be mainlining doughnuts from dawn 'til dusk, and we clearly have no self-control or respect.

Some people are genetically always going to be skinny, others, medium sized, others large. We are capable of manipulating the hand we are dealt to a degree in either direction (should we care to) but even if we were all fed exactly the same foods in exactly the same quantities we would not all be exactly the same size or shape.

I am a body conundrum and I really wish we could abandon the whole sizing thing. I bought fitted trousers the other day in a 12 yet even if I breathe in I can only get my waist to a 31. My abdomen is the only part of me that bulges - due to horrible separation of tummy muscles. Up top I am at least a size 18. My hips are an easy 10.
BMI too, let's ditch it. I have a high (28) BMI due to having extremely muscley parts of me (legs and arms). Although I do believe that there is some sense in the waist/hip ratio - having too much fat concentrated around your core organs is not good.
My weight is affected by the fact that I have very heavy, dense bones due to a high dairy diet all my life. I am certainly not high risk for osteoporosis.
I once starved myself to weigh 9st4. It was awful, I was awful.
I am happiest somewhere between 10 and 10st7.

Brought a size 14 nursing top the day after I gave birth and when it came it said XXL in it-they know how to kick a woman when she's down. Worked abroad for year before pregnant and lost loads of weight-looked terrible and gaunt, still in my head I felt fat. We are are own worst enemies. Loosing the baby weight slowly as BF but am trying to accept the new post baby me. Keep seeing Dani Minogue on x factor pictures looking amazing and she's BF!! At times when she is on TV looking like a model I'm sat on the sofa looking like a whale cluster feeding my two month old. (side tracked a bit-rant over)

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3616904.stm

interesting article

"the survey showed British women have a much straighter body shape - the hourglass has run out - and that there's a more obvious stomach. The last study of British body shape was done with people being measured by hand, and men weren't included".

No surprises that men weren't even included in the survey in 1950!!!

Hmm - I've always been sceptical of the idea of the 50s hourglass. Sure, people were thinner, but have you seen 50s-style corsets? I'm as sure as I can be they stuffed their bras with socks

How many men would like to get up close and personal with Nigella!
My eldest daughters are 20 & 21 yrs and healthy size 10-12 and 5ft 8 tall, my 15 yr old is 6ft and a size 8 and the youngest is 12 and 5ft 9 and a size 8. My youngest two get more comments that they are too thin.
But they both agree that v beckham is horrible to look at and a grown woman shouldn't be that thin.
I am 5 ft8 and a 12-14 (34ff boobs!!).
My only son 21 yrs is 6ft 7 1/2 tall and 13st 8 and he doesn't get the comments that the girls get.
So is it the men in our world that make is feel fat !

us !!

Like I said right at the beginning, it's all relative to your height. If you are tall then size 12 could be average. But if you are short then you are simply fat.

As for it's us men's fault. Rubbish. From what I've seen women are far far worse than men. Magazine's aside, if you go out for a night out, who will you be more worried about the knowing looks, the barbed/catty comments from? Men? Or your fellow women?

Now magazines. You might get the occasional article in a men's mag about how to lose the xmas flab. But in a woman's magazine, it's overrun with celeb diets, crash diets, celeb watch etc. etc. Kerry Katona loses a few pounds and she's all over the place doing interviews and releasing her fitness DVD. Who buys that tripe? Certainly not men!

So to those who think its a man's fault, I say put your own house in order before sending blame this way.

I agree Niceguy2 IME men are much less hung up about how real women look than the women themselves. Yes, I'm sure most of you given a choice would opt for a little bit shorter than you, long of leg, biggish of nork, with an hourglass middle, but I don't think you demand it - we just think you do!

Biggish of nork

I agree with Ormirian. I am tall like her (6 foot) but would consider myself large as a size 12 - when I have been that size I look fat, frankly.

This has got nowt to do with body dysmorphia or anything - I am very small boned (apparently one way to measure if you are large or small boned is to put your fingers round your wrist - if they just touch you are medium boned, if you cant make your fingers touch you are large boned, if your fingers overlap you are fine boned. Mine overlap by about 2cms so am fine boned, or have got long witchy fingers).

PLUS as i said up thread size 12 is not size 12 anymore, it is probably more like a large 14 or small 16. In the 80s a size 12 would have been more like a small 10, or an 8.

Who cares anyway, it's only a number. I have no idea what I weigh at the moment but would say it is around the 10- 10.5 stone mark. I just go by a favourite pair of jeans - if I fir in them I look and feel good, if they are tight I know I have put on weight and stop eating doritos and sweets for a bit.

According to that article, I am a 1950s woman - those are almost exactly my measurements, including height. No wonder I can't get clothes that fit right! Maybe I should try vintage stuff...

I think a modern 12 is huge.

I have a friend who will not be parted from her 1980s size 12 jeans; her other recently-purchased trousers are mostly size 8 to 10.

If you are tall then size 12 is not just average, it is thin. I could go up to a 14 easily without looking in the least overweight. In fact, in my first year at uni, I did (too much beer!)