to think women writhing around in suspenders and stockings is...

[hatwoman]

...not really family viewing? I've barely watched x-factor in my life but I had thought everyone said that, for all its faults, it was something that had got families watching telly together. I was expecting wholesome boy bands and gutsy young girls. Clearly I'm naive and a prude.

It may be pantomime to an adult, Jenai, but children and preteens who are just at the age of becoming aware of sexuality are way more easily influenced.

I really don't like the message that's being assimilated. That 'expressing yourself' means 'expressing your sexuality' (whether that's really your OWN sexuality is a whole other thread). That the best way to be admired and get on is to look and act sexy. That all your other talents and qualities are secondary to how well you fit into what's considered by others to be sexy. If it was just one show, shown for an adult audience, fair enough I'd have no problem with that. But even the 'pro' side are saying that it's on everywhere anyway.
Xfactor IS a family show - that's why I don't want them to normalise that viewpoint.

Plus it's icky to have all generations of a family sitting around, while the adult males are deliberately being given the horn.

MsSparkle, I may be wrong about CA being manufactured. I don't know enough about her, unlike you. It was my impression that she was, but I am probably wrong. I thought she may have been part of the Britney, Timberlake Disney thing. But I am probably wrong about that.

So claig...you do not think people dance the tango/salsa wearing next to nothing and rubbing their pelvis's against each other. I think you need to get out a bit more.

I used to do salsa...and it was a good excuse for guys who didnt have a girlfriend to have a good grope. I LOVE dancing but it did put me off somewhat.

As for beachwear etc. You need to look at all this through children's eyes. They do not see what is acceptable or not acceptable for the beach or work. They just see inconsistencies.

'So claig...you do not think people dance the tango/salsa wearing next to nothing and rubbing their pelvis's against each other.'

I don't think there is anything wrong with that. I doubt there has been a single complaint about Strictly. No one will have compained about Anne Widdecombe. But there have been many complaints about X-Factor. Is everybody wrong?

Even the Britney/Justine Disney Micky Mouse club wasn't about being manufactured. Christina was on it, the MMC was just a bit of fun for kids on the Disney channel and had really talented kids on it.

She didn't go from the MMC straight to a record deal. She has been a singer since she was 6 years old, doing shows here and there and worked her butt off to get where she is today. I am sorry to go on, but when i hear people saying she is just a manufatured star, i feel the need to step in and say hey, no she isn't. She is a star because she has an incredible voice and has written some incredible songs and has performed some amazing live shows

I am gonna find a clip from the MMC!

No I don't think it's that claig. Possibly I'm more bothered by the whole instant fame at any cost thing. Or I'm distracted by how dire most of the contestants are.

Real cheesy but

MsSparkle, I agree that she has got a very good voice and obviously does have talent. She must be good if she has such ardent fans as you, and it is good to see how much you stand up for her. I just wish she didn't have to stoop to some of her dressing up roles, because I agree that she is very talented.

I accecpt that, wukter. But I'm not sure how damaging it is.

Maybe having grown up with Miss World being considered mainstream family entertainment makes a bunch of women dancing around in their pants seem relatively innocuous to me, as a feminist.

sweet. years old!

"I just wish she didn't have to stoop to some of her dressing up roles"

...yet more patronising.

If you are all such feminists, why can't you let women choose for themselves how they dress/look/perform.

I agree with someone that said women are the worst for putting women down. They are bitchy and judgmental.

The 'liberals' in society would say it's exploiting to women to force them to cover up completely. But they also think it's demeaning for a woman to wear sexually provocative clothes. So there is some kind of middle ground that's ok. But that middle ground changes according to what society you are in and what era you are living in.

What is so wrong with supporting a woman's choice to wear whatever she wants, work in whatever job she chooses to do etc.

I don't like her to point that i think she can do no wrong though. I know she likes to dress up and experiement with different looks and styles and i know she has fun with it, even though some are very and very

I don't like her hair at the moment and i know she has gained weight. However, i understand that she has been going through divorce and isn't at her best right now.

It's a shame though that more people don't comment on performances like and when they mention her name. Instead they choose to focus on the negative side by calling her miss piggy etc

Oh dear, looking at the you lost me one, it's all out of timing.

MsS I thought Christina looked lovely.

Rihanna's lyrics though. Now they bother me, particularly pre-watershed.

The liberals in society say it's demeaning for a woman to HAVE to fit into a particular mould, because a woman's body is just so damn important that that's all she's viewed as.

MsS, I'm definitely not against Xtina because she's put on weight, that's the last thing I'd condemn her for. I don't condemn her either for knowing what sells and how to get on in this world. What I'm against is that despite all her talent and good works etc, she lives in a world where the hotness of her body, and her sexuality, are her main currencies.

amijee 'If you are all such feminists, why can't you let women choose for themselves how they dress/look/perform. '

Wear what you want. But I find it frustrating that some women still feel that they need to dress like prositutes to sell music.

Also I thought Rhianna looked beautiful until she undressed to nothing then looked ridiculous.

Agree about the lyrics thing re rhianna.

Talking about women (or girls for that matter - see numerous outraged posts on the Let Girls Be Girls thread) "dressing like prostitutes" doesn't seem terribly feminist to me.

I don't know who said that on this thread, Jenai. Not me.
I do think it's pretty feminist to feel that a woman's sexuality isn't for sale though.

Sorry that sounded stroppier than I meant.

But it bothers me.

Absolutely wukter. But I don't see prancing about on stage in your pants as selling your sexuality.

I agree with whoknows though, in thinking Rihanna looked daft once she lost the dress - although I found the dress more suggestive, with the split ending where it did.

"If you are all such feminists, why can't you let women choose for themselves how they dress/look/perform"

I expect that the vast vast vast majority of complaints were about the time and not CAs dress sense in general.

your above statement is like saying that because 2 adults should be allowed to choose to have consentual sex, then it would be okay if they did so in a playground!

CA IS free to dress and perform as she pleases but it SHOULD be tamed down before 9pm! just like we are free to have consentual sex with other adults, man/woman/transgender but we are not free (and should not be free) to have that sex on a public bus!

stop twisting this to make out like we all want CA covered from ankle to neck against her wishes! She's allowed to dress and act how she likes in appropriate settings already!

and re the time, not she did not choose the time of the booking BUT she could have gone on stage without the backing lap dancers and belted the song out! she is not blameless, neither are the producers.

p.s. I would have thought CAs outfit would have been just about passable for the time slot, if the backing dancers were in that it would have helped a little but they weren't! there were NO concessions made for the time slot / audience!

This thread has become a whole lot more than just the timing of the performances. There have been a number of comments about the way Rihanna and CA have chosen to perform and what they were wearing ( or lack of) over and above the whole watershed issue. That is why I am asking why women cannot just exercise their choice to wear what they want. The issues raised in this thread have been:

1. The timing of X factor performances before the watershed of 9pm

1. Some female popstars having an effect on the whole of society by what they choose to wear/how they dance etc

1. The above two issues being responsible for the premature sexualisation of young girls

I am sure all the above points were made about Elvis,Madonna,Lady GaGa etc.

What was far more shocking ( and potentially damaging) for me was to see Lily Allen smoking live on stage at one of the music festivals ( which was shown on TV) Think about the DIRECT impact that would have had on the many young girls watching that. Far worse than a bunch of girls prancing around in their underwear I think.

It's a family show, the time was 8.40pm.

I was not expecting to see a group of barely-dressed ladies dry-humping their chairs and each other.