Does this email seem unreasonable?

[LittleAmy]

Hi everyone.

I know I'm posting in the lions den here, but I'd appreciate your views as to whether this email to my husband seems in any way unreasonable or confrontational.

Thank you.

Can you see where I'm coming from at all?

I look after DD all through the day every working day. I exclusively breastfeed our daughter. It's demanding and exhausting.

I've got postnatal depression and I'm not coping very well. I need support to get better. You provide a lot of support and I appreciate it. I will be able to thank you properly when I am better. When you told me K was visiting I was excited. I love K. She is my favourite of your family members. I imagined we would spend some time together. I never got to see K properly last time she visited because you both went to the club so I was looking forward to finally bonding with her this time. But then I found out that you'll be spending the evening in the club again. I was very dissapointed and also frustrated by the 24 hours notice. Would it not have been possible to discuiss the plans with her last week? At least then I would have had a weeks notice to be mentally prepared. Last minute changes to plans is particularly triggering for me because I'm an anxious person.

When I went to dry my hair this evening I mulled everything over in my head to try and figure out if I was being unreasonable, rather than snap at you the moment you said it. I thought with an hour to mull over it then it wouldn't seem as bad, but the more I thought about it, the more inconsiderate your last minute plans seemed. In light of my recent mental state, specifically my struggling to look after DD for longer than 10 hours at a time, I couldn't understand why I was being left with her all day and then all evening, particularly as DD is most grumpy in the evenings. Depending on her temperment it can be a two-person job. Yet I anticipated our argument. Because me communicating my displeasure in something always ends terribly. I anticipated that you would say I hate your family because that is often said in arguments. But I hoped that my effort with your parents yesterday went at least some way to showing that I enjoy your familys company. But my making an effort with them seems to have gone unnoticed. It makes me feel sad that my efforts to bond with your family (particularly your mam) mean little to you and instead you insist that I hate them. It makes no sense to me.

Then I couldn't understand why we couldn't afford to purchase a scarf for K despite the fact that it costs £20 to go to the club for two nights. And that you expect my mam to buy it.

Most of all I'm saddened that despite my best efforts to get through the day keeping DD content and happy I had succeeded until tonight. But our poor little girl has had to watch us shouting and hitting eachother again. She is going to grow up anxious like me. I didn't want her to grow up like me. It's a horrible way to live.

We are failing our little girl. It brakes my heart, even more than your hatred for me.

When we were arguing this evening I heard you shout that it was all my fault, because I wanted children. But I was very careful to include you in the decision to have children. DD was very much planned by both of us. I don't think it helps anyone to keep mentioning that I wanted children. DD was wanted by both of us, so we're both "to blame". You are a grown man with over 40 years experience. When we coneived DD I was confident in your conviction to be a good father and I thought you genuenly wanted her. Was I wrong? It's too late for either of us to have regrets now.

I love you and I believe that you love me too. I don't think you do things like arrange nights out with malace. But it would save lots of heartache if we made joint decisions. When I am kept in the dark it makes me feel that you think my feelings are unimportant. It infantises me. It was assumed that I would be able to look after DD all day Friday then Friday evening on my own and also Sunday evening on my own. It leads me to think that you don't understand the extent of my depression. I don't know what else I can do to communicate the depth of my depression. I always thought I was quite demonstrative and transparent about it.

I would like to hear your thoughts.

x x

P.S. I've been very careful to word this email with "I feel" and "I think" rather than starting sentences with "you". I'm hoping that it will be less confrontational.

LittleAmy, how much better do you think you would be if you weren't experiencing domestic violence?

I was wondering writing that if it would translate, I had a suspicion there would be something wrong with that scenario I posed. I hope though that she can imagine those feelings because unless we can we won't value our own worth as a mother (ie how our children see us) this cycle could continue for that reason if not stopped.

" by standing up to your mother when she says things like that (has he ever done that?)"

No he's never done that. Should I expect him to do that? I'm not sure I myself would have the courage to argue with inlaws. Also my mum is very careful and says most of her bad things when DH is not there. Sometimes she even says bad things to me and then when I bring them up infront of DH she denies saying them. Thus making me look crazy. I'm not sure if she does it to be spiteful or whether her memory is really failing.

YES, he should definitely tell your mother off for telling you you are hard work, or not worth spending time on!

And, YES, If she denies it in front of him, he should believe you, and not her.

"Terry I genuinely doubt that he would hit me if I didn't have PND and wasn't such hard work."

Sweetheart this is rubbish and you do deserve better, I've suffered with depression for 11 years now I'm useless at times completely useless and I know I'm bloody hard work when I'm in a ball sobbing refusing to move and bleeding from self harming but not once has my DH hit me for being hard work.

I know how you're feeling but you can't blame yourself for how he is. I know how it is to need someone that much I have seperation anxiety from my partner, but its not doing you any good to need him this much and it will get better if you're on your own. I genuinly don't think you're going to be able to get better with him around.

No one would take your child from you for depression in fact I think you'd gain a whole lot more respect for seeking help. I didn't for a long while I can't tell you how glad I am now that I have.

If you don't feel you can leave him then nothing I or anyone else says here is going to make you leave him but for your own sake and your babys please go see your Doctor for a referal for counselling. It helps it really does having someone to listen to you who won't make judgements on you, you can tell them anything unless they belive you or someone you live with is in danger there are no reprecussions if they do feel they need to make a report to SS for example they will tell you first and explain why they're doing it.

You need to gain some self respect and you need to do it soon don't let your baby grow up seeing this as normal, is this really what you want for your child? The best gift you can give your baby now is gaining some self respect and learning to love yourself and please stop blaming yourself. Its fucking hard I won't deny that and I'm still getting there but my hearts breaking hearing you say this. The way you're justifying his behaviour isn't right. Deep down theres a part of you that knows this. Work on letting that part come to the front before you end up being pushed further into depression by your situation and end up living a life of misery for you and the little one or doing something worse.

cofuddled, PND is harder to "see" than other illnesses. PND can be seen as the woman being awkward, selfish and moany (which is how I think DH and mum see me).

How do you "prove" PND? How can I prove that I'm actually ill (I certainly feel ill) rather than just being difficult because I'm a bitch?

pluper, what do you mean by "a grudge"?

hello LittleAmy

sorry - i was watching apprentice!

I'm glad you are waiting for counselling. Hopefully it will go some way to improving your self esteem and self worth and only then can you make a proper decision about whether this relationship is worth salvaging.

It sounds like your DH wants to work at things too - would you be willing to go to relate together? Also, it may be worth looking into some self help books for relationships as they can at least open up lines of constructive communication between you.

You have done good to bf your baby for 5 mths - just continue to do what feels right for you. If it makes you feel better to bf then do it. If it's too much of a struggle then give yourself a break. You have given the best start to life already.

Ask your health visitor about any counselling sessions specifically for PND - sometimes there are group sessions etc. Try to let people into your life in an honest way so they can help you.

I do wish you all the best and hope you can find support here also x

I meant that she sounded like a big grudge.

As for "proving" PND, there's a lot that you could do before that you are not doing now. You studied, worked (don't dismiss them, as you did on the other thread, IIRC, as just "placements"), had a sense of self, had a lot of ambition, from what I gather. When did you start having difficulties? Er, after having a baby.

I'm sorry if that "Er" sounded flippant, by the way. I am trying to be matter-of-fact, so that you will see how clear it seems to an outsider, and how much you need to stop doing this all from "inside" yourself. You are seeing everything from this internal perspective, and need to break out of that prison by seeking positive external assessment of yourself and your life.

Sorry, it's time for me to go to bed, so please don't interpret any silence as not caring.

Hope you are having your nice cuddle and a gentle talk, if you can. If you think you are starting to gush bitter words, see if you can stop talking and just have a good cry instead, the sort of cry which is like real rain, after which the world is soaked but the sky is clear.

Sweet dreams.

I not only suffered from PND, I suffered from Birth Trauma (PTSD following birth). Not once in all the things I put my partner through would he have ever treated me like that. PND is not invisible, not to any person with feelings at least! I made him take shifts with me to watch our eldest sleep because she was a front sleeper and I was scared something would happen to her (I had OCD as part of the BT) which he did and never complained. I wouldn't let her near balconies or stairs and I wouldn't let anyone hold her when we were on a boat once because I didn't think anyone could hold her tight enough to protect her (we were INSIDE!) The boat was the turning point where I told the doctor.

All he's ever done is go along with things and supported me, sometimes gently explaining why things were OK really. Even suffering from lack of sleep he never got angry with me and he's never laid a finger on me.

Do not allow him to use your depression as an excuse to abuse you and don't you use it either. You do yourself a disservice when you do.

Amy, lovely, you are not 'an arsehole' or 'hard work', you are ILL. PND is an actual illness. Depression is an actual illness.

Your DH is behaving like an arsehole, you are ill.

It's true, it's hard work being with someone who is ill like that, but hitting them is never ever justified.

Oh and PND is far from "awkward, selfish and moany"

Go and see your GP and ask if it can be written down that you are officially suffering fom PND and Depression. They will probably have leaflets about it that explain what the symptoms are, and how you can't help it.

OR, get your DH to go to the GP with you, and listen to the explanation for himself.

I have nothing much to add, the wise women of mumsnet have already given so much guidance.

I was that child, my mum had PND with my little sisters, my step dad was violent. Please get help and support from all of the agencies that exist. Do it for yourself and your children.

If there is anything I can do to help, please contact me.

Oh Amy, bless you. You seem to be asking what is normal and what would be supportive behaviour for him. Well how he is acting is neither.

My sister had pnd. Her partner found it hard to understand, he couldn't comprehend why she would have little interest in their baby, why she would have so little energy or appear to lose interest in anything and instead sit with silent tears running down her face. However, he soon saw that it wasn't her choice or fault. I mean, who would choose to feel that?

He was exhausted but he helped her with the baby. When my sister cried or screamed he held her. He told her he loved her and that he knew she'd get better. He even baked her a cake to cheer her up. He was patient and it wasn't easy but he rode out the storm, just like my beautiful, strong sister did. Obviously we helped and it was a tough time but I am full of admiration for him and his love for his family. He would never have hit her and believe me, she was no picnic. That is how your partner should behave, however difficult things are for him.

Believe in yourself and the fact that you will get better, my sister is fine now and I'm sure she would be horrified to hear what you're going through.

Please call one of the helplines, you can do so anonymously so you don't need to fear your daughter being taken away, it's a first step. Good luck.

Amy, I think you really need to try and separate your illness and your relationship. You are on a waiting list for counselling for PND? That is just you, you also need to get counselling as a couple, through Relate or the like, to save your relationship. You are not the only one with a problem, he needs to get himself in gear.

Not all husbands of women with PND physically abuse them, any decent man would understand that you are sick, and do his damnedest to help you. Yes, it may be difficult for him sometimes, but that doesn't justify hitting you, or saying things that will damage your self esteem and make you more sick. You have recognised you have a problem and are getting help, that is the best you could be doing, he should be supporting you and telling you how strong you are to be honest with yourself about it.

I myself have mental health issues, a bit different to you, I have a Chronic Adjustment Disorder, which is a bit like PTSD spread over a longer time frame. I can be "difficult". My Ex also suffered from depression, he was emotionally abusive to me, very angry and unpredictable, he refused to acknowledge it, took illegal drugs that made him worse and refused treatment. His actions towards me made me more anxious and I ended up having a breakdown before realising he had to be out of my life. However, in the short phases where he was being treated, and accepting he was ill, even I, being unwell myself, was able to tolerate and support him, because I knew it was something we were doing together.

DH is much better. We were friends before, but got together when I was just about at my worse, I had said I wouldn't get into a relationship until I was "fixed", but he didn't want to wait and wanted to help. When we got together I was terribly agoraphobic, hated leaving the house on my own, often had panic attacks on the way to work and had to go home, I was regularly self harming, and quite frankly, a fucking mess.

He has been patient with me when I spend 2 hours trying to find something to wear that I feel ok leaving the house in, he has been patient while I refuse to make phone calls because I can't bear the idea of talking to a stranger. We have had flaming rows where I was being a complete bitch, trying to get him to leave me alone so I could self-harm, while he steadfastly refused to leave because he knew that if he let me rage it out, when I was too tired to fight back, he could talk me down. I myself don't think it's worth the effort to save a few razor injuries, he did.

He's not a saint, I know he got frustrated at times, but he does understand that there is a difference between me being "difficult" because of my illness, and just being a pita. He has never hit me, never shouted at me, and never said anything to reduce my self esteem. That is how the DH of a woman with mental health issues behaves normally. Your DH is intolerant, unhelpful and abusive. I really hope that this is through ignorance, in which case counselling will help him to understand how he can be supportive. Unfortunately it may be that he knows full well that he isn't helping you, in which case you and your daughter deserve better.

LittleAmy how are you today?

I hope you are listening to the overwhelming advice on here:

• you have PND which is an illness and not something to be belittled, it needs to be dealt with.
• your husband is not supportive and you need to either get him to address these issues and resolve them, or walk away from a very destructive relationship for you and your DD.
• ignore the negative comments from your mother, I know she is your mum but you need to cut loose that link (at least emotionally) and see what she is doing to your mental state.
• you are a strong person, you have taken the first step to try and change, but you can't fix your life or DD's all on your own, you need help from someone, and if that is not your husband or family then you need to seek alternative routes.

I think Porcelain makes a very good point that you need to seperate your PND and your relationship, but I wonder if you will be able to fix your PND with your husband around?

Hope you are enjoying some nice cuddles with your beautiful daughter today!

LittleAmy, support can be lots of different things. When I had my breakdown, my parents supported me by taking me out every morning for a walk in the nature reserve. They waited if I wasn't dressed and made it a regular time to get me into a routine I could depend on. My dad has done this for me five days a week for two years now (occasionally cancelling for appointments etc!). He runs his own business so he can make his own hours, obviously not everyone can do this, but it's a huge and supportive thing and he has never ever expected anything for it. My DP sat up with me all the nights I couldn't sleep, listened to my raging, fought for me to get a psychiatric nurse, a course of therapy, and even now does everything 'official' that stresses me out (diverted the phone to his computer and makes all appointments and complaints). His mum came round after work (she works 12-14 hour days as a postie) and cleaned the house until I could cope again. She still comes round once or twice a month to help me blitz.

With all this support I had space and time to get better. I still had to do my caring role (my DP is quadraplegic requiring 24h care); it wasn't time off, but it was a sharing of my stress. Just having regular contact with people who love you and want to share your life, burdens and triumphs, is immensely helpful. It's the isolation and the, what's the word, the on and on-ness of it all, that kills you, I think.

I know I am very lucky! I don't mean to sound smug or anything. I just want you to know what support can look like. It's not people hitting you, or having a go at you, or telling you what hard work you are. It's not, either, perfect saintly beings coming and doing everything you can't cope with and never complaining - no one is infinite. But what you need is love and constancy and hope for the future - for comrades. If you don't have that, you need to leave.

(There is hope for the future!)

Blu you said "I doubt very much whether SS would remove a child unless the child itself was being hit"
This is exactly what happened to somebody I know so unlikely or not it DOES happen.
The father I know hit the mother and it wasn't even in front of the child.
They told the mother that she was subjecting her child to abuse and if she chose to stay with the father then the child would be removed and placed for adoption.
The child was placed on the at risk register and it took a long time to get rid of SS.
Please LittleAmy seek professional advice. Can't you call Women's Aid anonymously?
Im sure they must have dealt with many cases like this before.
I know you may be scared of losing your DD but please at least speak to someone in RL please for your little girl if nothing else.

Women's Aid will be able to give you advice about the best way to deal with the situation.
They won't want SS to get involved but you need to show you want to get your DD out of this situation and then I'm sure it won't come to that.

Can't you go and stay with your mother for a little while?
Don't think of it as splitting up with your DH but removing your DD from that toxic environment.

tomorrow - well, I am sort of pleased to hear that...but surprised, since so many judges, for example, actually enforce access when women have been vey badly attcked by the father, and so many women are badly violently abused and their children stay as witnesses.

Anyway, the main point is that it shouldn't happen, is bad for Amy and bad for Amy's baby. And NOT Amy's fault!

Blu, that's a different scenario, it doesn't sound like it should be but it is. One is a mother choosing not to leave an abusive partner and one is the court putting the child in that situation. Sometimes they let themselves get away with more than they would let the parents.

And what TheBrandyButterflyEffect said too.