not to have sex with DH?

[lotswife]

My libido's been a bit crap since DC3 was born. I used to be up for it loads, but it got harder and harder to get turned on/in the mood - needed more effort on DH's part which he just didn't put in.

We had some talks about it as he was feeling rejected and unloved and I was feeling hassled and like he was only interested in sex.

He said he'd try to make more of an effort to make me feel desired (rather than like a blow up doll - his idea of foreplay was just to grab my tits or my bits and then expect me to be ready and waiting).

Then there were two incidents which really shook me. About 6 months ago I was asleep in DC2's bed (she'd been crying and I'd gone to soothe her and fallen asleep). DC2 had woken up and climbed over me to go and play with the other DCs. DH came to find me - and I woke up with him pulling up my nightie and parting my buttocks. I said 'what are you doing?' - but quietly as I thought DC1 was asleep in the other bed (v disoriented). He said "you're very wet, so I thought I'd take advantage" and put his cock in me! I shoved him away and we had a huge row.

I thought it was totally inappropriate (even though the DCs weren't in the room), and he kept saying that I was wet so he thought I wanted it (wanted what?! I was asleep). I felt really dirty and disgusting and like DH didn't respect me at all as a person.

We barely had sex after that. I just had no desire towards him at all. Then last week he was hassling me again - I was just about to drop off to sleep and he was a bit tipsy after a work night out - and I said I wasn't in the mood and he said I was never in the mood and it wasn't a marriage without sex.

I said that it was hard to fancy someone who'd just stick their cock in their sleeping wife. He said I was making excuses.

We've barely talked since. AIBU?

Oh, it's just a common or garden "if you gave consent once, then consent is implied for ever more".

Can you rape apologists at least come up with something a bit more original?

I strongly disagree that what the OP experienced was not attempted rape. He stopped, but only because the OP woke up. Therefore the intent was there. And it is just plain creepy of him to do it in the first place.

And here's another thought - was he wearing a condom?

It is one thing to wake your sleeping partner if you're in the mood - e.g. with some kisses on the shoulder - and see where that leads. It is quite another just thinking you can jump in there. It is altogether bloody awful to then make out the other person is overreacting and that their sexual problems are all down to them.

If a couple have an excellent relationship and they've discussed it, and both of them say it's ok to start shagging the other person when they're asleep (and for some it may be a turn on) then hey, fine. This situation is nothing like that.

notjustapotforsoup no I don't think people are in a permanent state of consent, but I think in a sexual relationship, there is usually some degree of implied consent. Do you always verbally ask your partner whether they want sex, or do you touch them to test the water, see if they respond? I think with many (most?) people, it's the latter.

A rape apologist? Yeah ok...

Peeringintothevoid, I well think you may well be.

Can you only be raped by people you aren't in a relationship with? (And I think it's clear OP's OH hasn't done this kind of thing before)

It is 'absurdly' black and white.
If no consent given/you are not able to give consent- it is rape.

Fwiw DH and I have a sort of unspoken consent that we can feel each other up when they are asleep and guage reaction (ie if I'm having a bad dream I push his hand away etc)

But does that consent amount to being allowed to actually fuck me while I'm asleep? HELL NO.

peeringintothevoid- yes you might touch them to see if they respond. But that is not what happened in first post, how could she respond if she was asleep?

'I woke up with him pulling up my nightie and parting my buttocks. I said 'what are you doing?' - but quietly as I thought DC1 was asleep in the other bed (v disoriented). He said "you're very wet, so I thought I'd take advantage" and put his cock in me!'

So she woke up to him about to put his cock in. She goes 'what are you doing?' (not exactly a welcoming phrase)

and he puts it in anyway.

OnceUponA "Can you only be raped by people you aren't in a relationship with?" No, absolutely not - you can be raped by anyone who forces themselves on you, and by that I mean coerces you by threat actual or implied. It is also rape is you are not capable of giving or withholding consent - ie you are unconscious, intoxicated or incapacitated.

If the OP's DH had thought that he could fuck her without her waking up, knowing that she wouldn't consent to that, then I would term that rape. But it didn't sound to me like that's what happened. From the OP, it sounded like he was trying it on, hoping she would wake up aroused and enjoying it.

I don't think it is rape! She said to him in a quiet voice "what are you doing?" Not "Stop!" not "No!" or anything similar. Perhaps he was just trying to be risqué, romantic and talking dirty to his wife? From what op has said it definitely doesn't sound like rape.

Hmm.

I don't think you needed your second para, peering, because It is also rape is you are not capable of giving or withholding consent - ie you are unconscious, intoxicated or incapacitated covers being asleep, doesn't it?

That is really disgusting. He actually said you were wet and that's why he went ahead and attempted penetration while you slept!??

In your child's bed?!

What a fucking animal. No wonder you have gone off sex.

OP

You really need to be aware of the whole MN overreaction thing. Posters will whip up the bad feeling in you and cause more damage than good.

Did you think it was rape before you posted here? No. Then it wasnt.

The fact is, your DH is confused and frustrated that suddenly your relationship has changed. The sex has stopped, theres no particular reason that he can understand, and he doesnt see it as his fault.

Why would you expect him to see that its he who needs to change?

So now you are pissed at him, and he is pissed at you.

You need to sit down, talk, and work out some arrangement, because as you say - the marriage wont last without the intimacy. He needs to work on his approach and you need to figure out whats happening on your side of the equation.

What sort of man thinks that getting his cock out and pulling her nightie up is the best way forward when he clearly knew they were having huge problems in their sex life?

Like I said before also - what about protection? If she had remained asleep or sleepy enough not to react before he came, there was every chance of falling P. Which I'd hazard, from the sound of it, would be the last thing the OP wanted.

That's rape, pure and simple. Do you want to be married to a rapist? See a solicitor, tell them exactly what you told us then take him to the cleaners.

Peering: 'if he'd been touching me gently - you know what I mean - and I'd woken up to that, then that would've been different. But he was clearly just trying to shove it in there. No interest in my arousal' by the OP.
The point you are making about different couples having different rituals for initiating sex is not relevant, she was asleep and he did not 'try it on' by touching or stroking her, he tried to insert his penis into her whilst she was asleep, that is attempted rape.
OP get yourself into counselling.

Actually no, I don't think asleep is the same thing as being unconscious, intoxicated or incapacitated. If you touch a person who is asleep, they are likely to wake up pretty quickly, whereupon they can give or withhold their consent. To me this is not the same thing as being unconscious.

I'd like to emphasise that just because I don't term what he did as rape, I still think his behaviour was utterly unacceptable, and if I completely understand why the OP is furious and unhappy. I don't really want an argument about the definition of rape to take over a thread that's supposed to be giving support to someone who is in a really horrible and difficult situation. Sorry OP.

He would not have known she was wet if he hadn't been touching her while she slept.

I am so sorry OP. I hope you're okay :(

wtf is going is going on with the rape apologists on this thread

do you people deny that marital rape exists ?

OP, you need to get the fuck away from your rapist of a husband

I totally agree with what sgb said upthread

Lots of women may not initially think what they have experienced is rape, just because it's their DH/DP. That doesn't mean it isn't.

She may not have initially thought "rape" but she definitely knew it felt wrong and had to shove him away. She described feeling shaken after the incident and not respected. This is so much more than "trying it on" gone wrong.

But in a way, the worst bit is his lack of apology or understanding. And if he can't understand that this, combined with having 3 young DC is a reason for their sex life to suffer at the moment, then he's an idiot. How could it not be any clearer?

OP, love - AIBU was not the place for this.

Maybe replay in relationships or the feminist section.

Please concentrate on getting support from MN to help you through this and ignore the vile posters who are not engaging with you and trying to say Yabu.

I want you to know that I believe what you have told us and the definition of rape is clear and your husband attempted to rape you.

Those who are downplaying what has happened please start your own thread all about your definition of rape.

Otherwise those of you who are regularly fucked whilst asleep come and confirm that this would be normal in your house if you were in DCs bedroom after a DISTURBED NIGHTS SLEEP FFS.

I'm sorry for being part of the kicking off about te definition of rape and consent, OP. I do think it is important to be clear about what one is dealing with in these situations and sometimes get a bit

YANBU, clearly. I hope you can get some support IRL to help you through this.

And, yes, I believe you.

Thank God AF and SGB have commented on this thread (and others too). I can categorically say if DH tried on that kind of crap, at best he'd be sleeping on the sofa. Absolutely despicable (sp?) behaviour IMO from your H. I feel very for you, OP

I don't know whether its rape or not, to be honest - I think it depends on how the OP feels - but it's clear her H doesn't give a flying fuck about her sexual needs.

Personally the thought of trying it on with my DP while she was asleep makes me feel icky. And vice versa.

Peering if a neighbour / stranger did this , would you consider that she had been assaulted ?

Rape / assault occurs when penetration takes place without consent . Fact , end of . There is no definitions between husbands / strangers , or neighbours. There is nothing within the law to give husbands special rights , even if you do. The op was assaulted , the law says so .

And what sort of goon attempts to fuck a sleeping woman in a childs bed . Disgusting. No wonder she doesnt want sex when his idea is to stick his cock into her.

And id lose the idea that he doesnt get it , doesnt understand ect , of course he gets it , he wont mention this incidant to anyone , ever, and ill guarentee he,ll hit the roof if op does. Some men use this persistant harrassment for sex as a form of control.

Starbuck999 - are you stupid? He didn't ask her if she wanted him to put his dick in her. He didn't gain consent through non verbal communication. He attempted to penetrate a person's body without getting consent. That, strictly and legally defined, is rape. Do you really think rape only happens by strangers in dark alleys?