not to have sex with DH?

[lotswife]

My libido's been a bit crap since DC3 was born. I used to be up for it loads, but it got harder and harder to get turned on/in the mood - needed more effort on DH's part which he just didn't put in.

We had some talks about it as he was feeling rejected and unloved and I was feeling hassled and like he was only interested in sex.

He said he'd try to make more of an effort to make me feel desired (rather than like a blow up doll - his idea of foreplay was just to grab my tits or my bits and then expect me to be ready and waiting).

Then there were two incidents which really shook me. About 6 months ago I was asleep in DC2's bed (she'd been crying and I'd gone to soothe her and fallen asleep). DC2 had woken up and climbed over me to go and play with the other DCs. DH came to find me - and I woke up with him pulling up my nightie and parting my buttocks. I said 'what are you doing?' - but quietly as I thought DC1 was asleep in the other bed (v disoriented). He said "you're very wet, so I thought I'd take advantage" and put his cock in me! I shoved him away and we had a huge row.

I thought it was totally inappropriate (even though the DCs weren't in the room), and he kept saying that I was wet so he thought I wanted it (wanted what?! I was asleep). I felt really dirty and disgusting and like DH didn't respect me at all as a person.

We barely had sex after that. I just had no desire towards him at all. Then last week he was hassling me again - I was just about to drop off to sleep and he was a bit tipsy after a work night out - and I said I wasn't in the mood and he said I was never in the mood and it wasn't a marriage without sex.

I said that it was hard to fancy someone who'd just stick their cock in their sleeping wife. He said I was making excuses.

We've barely talked since. AIBU?

Oh OP what a horrid situation.

YADNBU.

I don't have much advice really, but I too had low sex drive during pregnancy and when DCs were little, it's only just coming back now and youngest DD is 2 and a half.

I'm not suprized you don't want sex with your H after what he did- that you don't want him now is down to his actions and make sure he knows that.

I had a similar experience. I just typed some of it here then deleted the lot, I can't bear to tell you.

Its got to be counselling or out. I'd get a Relate appt. on your own first (that's what I did). They will also give you ideas what to expect and what any legal aspect might be if you do decide to pack it in. Good luck.

Did your DH apologise at the time and try to explain why he behaved that way?

I don't think he's some kind of sexual predator but definitely made a big mistake.

If you want to stay together you cant keep expecting him to keep apologising for what happened (assuming he has apologised??? Sorry if I have missed that in your thread)

Expecting him to do penance for his mistake is like you continually punishing him for this. Adult relationships will not succeed on this basis.

EricNorthmansMistress in your opinion and in your experience but not in mine which is why I posted what I did.

I think you have misunderstood what I was saying.

No one should make you have sex if you do not want it. No one should put up with the situation that lotswife is in. No one. That's non negotiable.

However, it does not hurt to try to understand why people act as they do before shouting 'divorce him' and 'your marriage is over'. An earlier poster commented "he sounds clumsy and confused and rejected to me". Picking up on that point a "clumsy,confused" man might try to build an emotional bridge with his wife in the most obvious way to him which is through sex. She might not see it that way as her sexual needs could be different.

It does not excuse what he's done. It does not take away his need to re think his whole approach to the relationship. But lotswife says "it's a brilliant relationship and I am the more demanding partner ...We are really good friends and get on really well."

So why would a man who is valued in that way act like that? I do think there is a strong element of clumsy and confused there. And what the counsellor said to me and to DH (amongst a LOT of other things over a significant period) helped us (IME and IMO:)) to understand our situation and each other a little better.

You asked earlier how to get him to go to counselling. In my case the doctor prescribed it. DH had previously refused angrily to even consider the idea but listened to the doctor. I'm not pretending any of it was easy. It was hell. Or quick - it took a long time.

But we too had a brilliant relationship and were really good friends. Still is, still are - even better now that we worked through all the earlier issues but it was hell at the time.

YANBU. What a difficult situation for you.

But I'm with LemonDifficult and others on this; he did not rape you or attempt to rape you. If you'd told him to stop and he had continued, then he would have raped you. What he did was crass and insensitive, considering that your sex life was having problems at the time, and I think you are the one, in your heart, who really knows your DH and knows whether what he did was just that - a bit crass and insensitive, trading on an intimacy that he thought was still present between you - or whether he was trying to force you into something you didn't want. I've been woken up in the midst of foreplay/penetration before, and it's a delicious feeling if you have the degree of intimacy with your partner that implies consent. Could he have been touching you up your nightie before you woke up, thought you were turned on, and that it would be a pleasant surprise? (Especially since you say you have previously touched each other sexually when one of you is almost asleep.) Only you and he know that (not a load of people on the internet ). From the sounds of your post though, from your perspective that intimacy was not there, and what he did was at best an insensitive liberty. He needs to recognise and acknowledge that. In view I'm not surprised he reacted so strongly to the suggestion that he tried to rape you; a rapist is one of the worst things a man can be labelled - second only to paedophile, I'd have thought.
Could you write him a letter telling him exactly how you feel? Sometimes when something is written down, it's easier for the other person to take on board, because they can't interrupt, and can re-read it calmly.

I don't know what the answer is, but I can totally understand your anger and feelings. I really hope you find a way to work things out for the sake of your marriage and your children.

OnceUponA, I do not consider myself to have been raped just because my DP started making love to me while I was asleep. We have built up a relationship over years and he knows what is acceptable to me and that I will not mind. If I make it known that I do mind he will stop. It's different from the OP's situation because this wasn't a regular thing and he didn't apologise, which is wrong. It's not the act, it's the motivation behind it and refusal to care about hurt feelings that is the problem

He didn't really apologise. Eventually he did one of those "I'm sorry you're upset" bullshit fake apologies but he maintained throughout that he was acting in the reasonable belief that I would be fine with what he was doing because "in the past" we've had sex which has started like that (no we haven't, but we have had sex which began as one of us making moves on the other while they were asleep; he doesn't see the difference apparently), and because I was wet.

As I said up there, Fangolina, if I'd made a 'mistake' like that with DH, I'd have been devastated I'd upset him even if I had genuinely thought I was doing an OK thing. He didn't react like that at all - he was pissed off with me. And whenever I've tried to discuss it since he's been defensive/offensive/refused to discuss it.

When I have mentioned counselling he's basically said I'm being stupid. So I am not helpful. Perhaps if I present it as an ultimatum - but if he calls my bluff, then what. We both know I don't want to get divorced.

Maybe tell him what you need from him to be able to move forward? You don't have to present it as an ultimatum.

hopeful

What's freaking me out, and I am sure is not at all lost on the OP, is that she was in her child's bed, and I assume that child could have walked back in at any second - OMG!! I think a man would have to be well confused to think it was OK.

"In the past we have had sex which has started from one of us making moves on the other while dozing or half asleep BUT it has always been consensual. But perhaps DH doesn't see that as being different?"

How is it consensual if one party is asleep?

Presumably one party is touching the other, then they woke up, was 'up for it' at which point it becomes consensual.

I'd imagine that if you both have in the past started sex while the other person was asleep then he wouldn't see it being very different.

FWIW DH and I have had some tough times and while we both know we don't want to get divorced, it doesn't mean that we will just accept deal breaker behaviour.

What do you need from him to be able to move forward/forgive and enjoy the thought of a future together?

ItalianLady, I've tried that so many times. I have tried to be sympathetic and understanding. I have tried to get him to see that I want a good sex life too but I just can't enjoy sex with him at the moment (and explained why).

He says I am being irrational (his favourite term), unreasonable, trying to excuse my lack of interest in sex, holding him to ransom, making him the bad guy, etc etc.

He has said "well go and see a counsellor if you want but I am not paying", and brings up our lack of childcare (a fair point though I know relate do email and phone counselling?)

I can't see him seeing things from my point of view all of a sudden, since he is so absorbed in what he thinks I am doing (fair enough since the reverse is true or me).

lotswife just to be absolutely clear - we cross posted before. I am not, absolutely not saying you should have sex if you don't feel like it. Never, ever.

I was just trying to suggest that in a ham fisted kind of way maybe he was trying to be close to you and he screwed it up (in more ways than one). That doesn't mean you should have sex with him just to help him feel close. Absolutely not. An awful lot has to be understood and improve before you feel ready and want to have sex. Only then should it happen.

Then I think you need to talk when the kids are asleep and say that you can not go on like this.

He can't be happy either though, based on what you're saying?

Does he want to stay together?

If you said let's try counselling would he really refuse outright?

Fangolina, I guess I want him to genuinely see that he treated me badly, and to understand why I don't want to have sex with someone who was so disrespectful.

But that's unlikely. And it's not like I am a saint by any stretch of the imagination, and the 'deep' conversations I have tried to have, to unpack how we feel about this stuff (why he refused to make more of an effort with foreplay, whether that's something he's never done with anyone or just couldn't see the point of doing with me), and stuff which has happened in the past has turned into him listing all the bad stuff I've ever done (plenty).

So we can't make progress, because I am constantly saying "yes, that did happen, and if you want to talk about it we can, but could you answer my question first?" - and him stropping off.

He gets defensive because he knows what he did was wrong, he won't discuss it because he knows what he did was wrong, he won't go to counselling because he knows what he did was wrong.
Libido fluctuates: FACT!
Young children effect your sex life: FACT!
What you don't do about it is try to stick your cock in your sleeping wife while she's asleep in your sons bed then refuse to apologise!
FFS.

He's retaining control by refusing to engage with you about an issue that has effected your feelings for him because it makes him look bad. Go to counselling on your own if he won't attend, get strong then look at this relationship again.

Fangolina, he 100% thinks the only problem we have is me. He is happy in our relationship, often says he loves me, etc. He might be hiding a deep sadness.

I am extrapolating based on what he's said before re: counselling. I do think he'd refuse, but I don't know for sure what he'd do if I said it was counselling or divorce, for example.

I worry that if I did 'make' him go, he'd go but not participate/engage - which he would say was him fulfilling his half of the deal (turning up). If he did that then I think it would be over because he'd be showing me he doesn't care enough to try.

So I am scared to force it. I know I need to though.

Pamela- yes your situation is different but I felt as though you were implying to OP that it wasn't.

Peeringintothevoid, are you thick? 'But I'm with LemonDifficult and others on this; he did not rape you or attempt to rape you. If you'd told him to stop and he had continued, then he would have raped you.'

Erm, no. So just take the chance first and pop it in, and if she says no take it out?! FGS! It is RAPE when it is penetration without consent. As OP was asleep there was NO consent.

Lotswife, what a shitty situation. Angry is good - you can get a lot achieved through anger. Mental clarity, I mean.

For all those that think this is not rape/attempted rape, do you think that people are in a permanent state of consent and it is only rape if you say "No"?

Well said notjust

OnceUponA No, I don't think I'm thick, but nor do I think things are as absurdly black and white as you seem to. How exactly do you know that he was taking the first chance to pop it in? Were you there? Thought not.

If he'd happened across someone other than his sexual partner, who was asleep, and tried to have sex with them, then that would have been (attempted) rape. But as I said, he may (only him and the OP know) have been trading on a past intimacy and consent -they'd done this sort of thing before - that the OP was clearly not still feeling. Inappropriate, insensitive, but not rape, no.