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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

not to have sex with DH?

365 replies

lotswife · 19/11/2010 15:01

My libido's been a bit crap since DC3 was born. I used to be up for it loads, but it got harder and harder to get turned on/in the mood - needed more effort on DH's part which he just didn't put in.

We had some talks about it as he was feeling rejected and unloved and I was feeling hassled and like he was only interested in sex.

He said he'd try to make more of an effort to make me feel desired (rather than like a blow up doll - his idea of foreplay was just to grab my tits or my bits and then expect me to be ready and waiting).

Then there were two incidents which really shook me. About 6 months ago I was asleep in DC2's bed (she'd been crying and I'd gone to soothe her and fallen asleep). DC2 had woken up and climbed over me to go and play with the other DCs. DH came to find me - and I woke up with him pulling up my nightie and parting my buttocks. I said 'what are you doing?' - but quietly as I thought DC1 was asleep in the other bed (v disoriented). He said "you're very wet, so I thought I'd take advantage" and put his cock in me! I shoved him away and we had a huge row.

I thought it was totally inappropriate (even though the DCs weren't in the room), and he kept saying that I was wet so he thought I wanted it (wanted what?! I was asleep). I felt really dirty and disgusting and like DH didn't respect me at all as a person.

We barely had sex after that. I just had no desire towards him at all. Then last week he was hassling me again - I was just about to drop off to sleep and he was a bit tipsy after a work night out - and I said I wasn't in the mood and he said I was never in the mood and it wasn't a marriage without sex.

I said that it was hard to fancy someone who'd just stick their cock in their sleeping wife. He said I was making excuses.

We've barely talked since. AIBU?

OP posts:
Mumcentreplus · 20/11/2010 01:31

true dignified perhaps the fact that i have not experienced something close to this although I have experienced other situations does colour they way i feel and my opinions I can admit to that..it's been interesting

dignified · 20/11/2010 01:59

Before i came on mumsnet my definition of sexual assault was a stranger dragging you down a dark alley . My defintion of domestic violence was an angry man beating his wife senseless.

Id never heard about controlling men , emotional abuse , gaslighting , stonewalling , sexual bullying ect. There are countless books written on these subjects, all of them well known tactics of abusers. I didnt know, but how would i , we arent taught this stuff in school , no one tells us and the joke is , these things were happening to me , i lived like that.

I regularly experienced the same as the op , i was not safe in my own house , he would letch and leer at me and come in to perv when i was in the shower. He would yell and wake the kids up if i refused to have sex with him. When i did have sex he would do things i didnt like and sulk if i objected .

He would grope me while i was asleep , and worse. He,d constantly make disgusting comments to me that i found repulsive and would maul me constantly. At the time i assumed we had a problem with differing drives / communication ect .

I knew , like the op , that this was wrong behaviour. I wouldnt have described him as a rapist or a violent sexual offender , but he *was" raping and assaulting , and he was doing it to bully and degrade , not to get off .

The fact that he got less sex by doing this indicated he wasnt actually that bothered about sex. He just wanted to donimate and control , and it worked. Men will use a range of methods to bully , from silent treatment to controlling money to outright violence . None , i think , are as effective as the sexual bully.

Despite the discussions about rape ect , i do not think the ops H is prowling the neighbourhood looking for women , i do not consider him a rapist in the sense that most people tend to recognise . But he did attempt a rape in my book , not to get off , but to degrade her , he knew full well that sex was not going to take place with a sleeping wife , no foreplay , in a childs bed with kids running round .

Sexual bullys exist , they hide behind the rape myths and only assault the women they live with . Its not talked about , women dont recognise it when its happening to them , and when they speak out shes told that men need sex , she needs to make an effort and be more sensitive. She doesnt , she needs to get rid.

Rachyandmeg · 20/11/2010 06:57

Hi lotswife,
I think you both have issues in this marriage. I don't think he was trying to rape you. Possibly he could just have a high sex drive or just want sex if you have not had it for a long time. He obviously is still very attracted to you. I think when you used to have sex and started messing wiTh each other when nearly asleep or waking you up to have sex he just thinks its same thing and its normal in relationships. But then you suddenly have gone off sex and turn him down when he does same thing but maybe just a little bit more passioante this time , no wonder he's not apologising. You are husband and wife and I think its normal to have sex. You maybe have gone off it because of baby. He probably feels rejected. I think possibly he could improve his love making skills but then you have to think has he always made love with u in same way in your marriage? Eg with not much touching etc maybe you have changed and want more now but maybe he is doing what he has always done in the way he just doesn't do much foreplay so he is confused and wonders whts going on.
I think you have changed not him and he probably feels rejected . He is your husband and I think not even trying will end up pushing him away. Have you got some sort. Of depression after baby number 3 ? I think you do need to talk to someone if you feel this bad but I don't think he raped you or tried. He needs to support you but I don't think he has the issue here. You could teach him more foreplay in bed etc. Also communication you need some time alone to talk properly. Get babysitter etc good luck x

differentnameforthis · 20/11/2010 09:00

Rachyandmeg, there is so much wrong with your post!

Possibly he could just have a high sex drive or just want sex if you have not had it for a long time

My dh has a high drive atm. And recently I have been able to match him, which is great for both of us. But the last few weeks dd1 & dd2 have been ill, we have all been sleeping badly, we went on holiday & all 4 of slept in the same room etc.

This added up to almost 6 weeks of no sex for dh & I.

Did he try to penetrate me while I slept? No! It is NOTHING at all to do with rejection! If you think that, then any man who 'feels' (and how do we measure this?) rejected can just penetrate whoever/whenever they like?

You are husband and wife and I think its normal to have sex

Yes, of course it is normal to have sex....what is not normal is having/trying to have sex while your wife sleeps! Geez, I cannot believe anyone thinks that is OK!

I should say that dh & I are very tactile, I don't mind if his hands travel while we cuddle, I don't mind being woken by gentle caressing (with a view to sex) to have sex.

BUT, if on any occasion I say no to those wondering hands, or say no to those mid night advances, he stops! If I wake barely there & ask what is he up to, he'll use his words/actions to indicate he wants sex & waits for me to consent (we have ways of non verbal consenting as well as verbally) only then, will he go ahead. If I say no thanks, he stops.

That is as easy as it is. Just because it worked for him once, he knows that that has not given him unrestricted access any time he likes! He waits for my response. As I wait for his.

Had i not had the experience of living with someone like that i might be the same

I haven't lived with anyone like this & I know it isn't right.

I wouldn't class my self as a feminist, particularly, and yet I know that the described incident is in no way acceptable.

OP, I hope you can work this out to a conclusion that works for both of you, whatever that may be!

lotswife · 20/11/2010 09:06

Rachy I didn't say anything about rape.

I did say I needed more effort put in to turn me on, which he wasn't interested in doing. If I was going to distill the problem as I see it, I'd say it was that; my needs changed, I told him so, he ignored it.

To be honest I think "poor DH, poor confused man" responses are infantalising and dangerous. If he can't get his head round things changing then he probably shouldn't be in a long-term sexual relationship.

OP posts:
lotswife · 20/11/2010 09:09

I think I am going to take the ongoing issue elsewhere, though I'm a bit wary of relationships after the bunfight I saw a while ago on a not dissimilar issue. Thanks all for your responses.

OP posts:
EricNorthmansMistress · 20/11/2010 09:11

Please ignore RachyandMeg's last post it's full of shit. I don't even want to address why, it's too fucking gross.

ClaireDeLoon · 20/11/2010 09:13

How did talking to him go?

lotswife · 20/11/2010 09:19

It went okay, Claire. Looking at it objectively he said a lot of stuff which was ridiculous and childish. He kept trying to make it a discussion about invasions of personal space (he doesn't like it when I squeeze his backne. So now we know. He stopped short of saying it was as violating as unwanted sexual contact, but I'm not sure what he actually thinks).

He agreed to see a counsellor. I'm going to see someone on my own first.

I have no idea how to find a counsellor, let alone a good one. I suspect that DH has a lot of unresolved anger (not about sex), and that is colouring his responses to this issue.

OP posts:
ItalianLady · 20/11/2010 09:30

I see both sides of this - people who are saying it was rape and those not - but the OP doesn't feel she was raped and I think what she says is the important bit. IME it isn't helpful to tell someone she has been raped when she doesn't feel she has.

I realise I might get a flaming for saying this, and I have to go out now for a few hours so not throwing a grenade and then going, but I have been in a situation where I was sexually abused and another where I have woken up to see the man I love on top of me and I know what is the worst to live with. having read this thread and now having the thought that he raped me has actually caused me a lot of pain so I do think people need to be careful.

What OP's husband did was wrong on so many levels and I think the time now is better served by helping the OP work through what she needs to do (I can offer help with babysitting if I am near enough) rather than keep banging on about how he raped her. She doesn't feel she was, she doesn't sound stupid or in denial, so I think we should accept that.

I wish everyone peace for those that have been assaulted, etc.

dittany · 20/11/2010 09:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

lotswife · 20/11/2010 09:58

dittany, I think calling Rape Crisis, whatever I am 'calling' what happened, wouldn't be the best idea. I want a counsellor who would be interested in helping us as a couple recover from our issues, if we can. I also wouldn't want to take any slots which could be used by any one of the many many women in urgent need of more assistance than I. Thanks though.

OP posts:
dittany · 20/11/2010 10:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

dittany · 20/11/2010 10:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JessinAvalon · 20/11/2010 10:29

Hi
I would asking your GP or trying Womankind if you have one in your area. I had some counselling via my GP practice. I had to wait but not for too long.

Alternatively if you pay for it I would suggest looking online at the British Association of Counsellors and Psychotherapists website. You ideally want someone accredited with them and people list their areas of speciality on there too. You can email or phone beforehand to set out the problem and see if they are qualified to deal with the particular issues.

I would suggest that a counsellor who just sits and let's you talk would not be the best approach and that someone who can offer you proper support would be more desirable.

CrawlingInMySkin · 20/11/2010 10:51

Mumcentreplus May I just suggest you read my post on pg 5 at 20:10 it may give you a understanding that what you describe is a very different event. For one thing me and my partner do what you describe but I am always conscious before sex starts, and it is done in a loving way the first act I experienced that was very similar to was not loving at all.

CrawlingInMySkin · 20/11/2010 10:53

Lotswife I think what worries me most is your DH attitude he is not apologising or accepting he did anything wrong which to me is what is dangerous I think the group counsilling is a good idea because I fear you need him to acknowledge his behaviour or you will find it difficult to move on.

steph1512 · 20/11/2010 11:00

I think the debate on whether it was rape or not is not a great help. I feel like half the thread should be tranferred to a new thread titled ' what is rape?' or something like that anyway.

I feel slightly concerned that the op has been slightly over looked. Im sure you are all trying to help, and i havent been able to read all the posts.

But from what i have read from OP i am off the understanding that she want to make things work and for her marriage to move forward.

Obviously that is going to take work (ALOT) from her dh. If you are going by text book definition of rape, then yer unconsented intercorse is. But it is not up to us to judge op or tell her to end her marriage, she has decided for her own reasons that she wants to work through this.

I def agree that counselling is a good route to go go down, as it nothing else i would imagine it would help a great deal with communication, i have heard aloit of success stories.

FWIW i dont think you have to have sex to be in a marriage...i find it shocking that some people would deem their marriage unsuccessful if they did not have sex, i mean come on what age do we live in, having sex isnt a right. i mean what if for some reason one person in the marriage could not have sex for some reason or just decided they never wanted to..its not something that you can force yourself to want..i certainly cant. Does this mean if you were in this circumstance your marriage is a failer?

I have had 3dc in 4yr, and dispite having a high sex drive b4 children it did not stay that way, my husband would prefer it not to be this way, but i have explained my reasons and he has supported me, things are changing now my youngest is 7mth but i would never jsut do it to please him..just seems wrong to me.

I really hope whatever op decides, she decides for her and ultimately is happy and feels she tried what ever course of action she wanted rather than saying what if

steph1512 · 20/11/2010 11:03

excuse typos, riggly baby on my knee.

I would go to gp re counselling on NHS it isnt always a long wait so worth enquiring x

Fibilou · 20/11/2010 11:03

Lotswife, I work in the criminal justice system, if you can't afford to pay for counselling, do you have a Sexual Assault centre anywhere near you ?
We have the Saturn centre in Sussex where women can go and report a rape etc, speak to a sexual abuse worker and, if the victim so desires, the police will not become involved. They provide a wide range of services and might be able to arrange counselling for you.

If you are willing to let me know which police force area you are in I will make a call on Monday to see if you would have access to something similar

JessinAvalon · 20/11/2010 11:32

OP, As I said in an earlier post, what struck me in your posts was the sense of entitlement that your husband feels, and the lack of empathy and remorse he expressed when you tried to talk. I had this continually with a man I was in a relationship with for 5 years. I wrote him endless letters thinking that I just needed to say it in the right way and then perhaps he might magically 'get it'. He seemed so understanding sometimes and other times would leave me feeling as if I was going mad.

A counsellor I saw said that, if you get to the stage where you're having to write your partner letters, you are in trouble.

I had particular issues with my ex, he had a personality disorder for one thing, and I am not suggesting that my situation is the same as yours. I tried everything with mine and had to walk away.

Much of what you wrote triggered memories and feelings of stress in me. I would really suggest getting some counselling on your own (at first, and at the very least) and I would urge you to get hold of a copy of Patricia Evans book, Verbally Abusive Relationships. I also have a copy of Living with the Dominator which is worth a read.

I'd also recommend Lundy Bancroft's book 'Why does he do that?' (I have a whole library of books on this subject!)

I think that one of the problems with controlling men is that we get used to their behaviour and we normalise it. I know I certainly did. And the sense of entitlement that my ex had really opened my eyes to the position of women in society and made me into an ardent feminist! (and hence I am mostly found in the feminism section!)

I certainly do not condone what your husband did to you at all but I suspect that this sense of entitlement that he has over your body extends to other areas of your relationship. He can change, if he wants to. My ex didn't, which is why he is an ex, but that's one of the problems with a personality disorder. The patterns of behaviour are too ingrained to ever really change.

Obviously some of the things you are talking about on here are painful to think about. But you seem level headed enough to know that you need to get some counselling on your own at first, which is great. I seriously would advise against couples counselling at least initially. That's not to say that the problem is you or your fault (I think the opposite) but it gives you a chance to be heard. Controlling men in couples counselling tend to take over and they can be very good at manipulating counsellors. I have heard some horror stories about this happening.

I do wish you luck.

ItalianLady · 20/11/2010 14:07

Dittany - no I am not and never actually lived with him. This was a very long time ago.

Rachyandmeg · 20/11/2010 15:47

I will ignore the swearing comments. No need to turn it into bullying just because I am trying to give a perspective about lotswife husband.

Hi lotswife maybe your hubby thought you was awake. You had just been up with the kids ! I agree that he needs to improve his turn you on skills by just trying to go straight to it but possibly this is all it was not rape like some other suggested. ( I know you didn't) the rape posts is a very serious allegation and I think you have 3 children together and been married a number of years I am sure you would have had some indication of this as you wouuldnt have married a rapist and had 3 kids. I think me along with a few other posters is the only one trying to help you save your marriage. If you want it to work how will it? By keep listening to people ear bashing him, its not helpful in helping you solve your iSsues together as a couple . If you don't want it to work then you need to think about leaving etc

Your comment ?poor dh, poor confused man? doesn't sound to me like you want it to work. I am trying to be helpful . Sorry you feel that way and want to go elsewhere but I thought we was trying to help you solve your issues with him . That's not going to do it by listening to the haters of men is it? Maybe you should go to counselling first and try to deal with issues/clarify it all then once your clear your husband should join you. Good luck :)

Rachyandmeg · 20/11/2010 15:58

Just thought I would never condone rape , lotswife doesnt think its rape so why isn't everyone helping her work h er issues out with him if she want to stay with him? I think its ridiculous that if its not rape then why you keep going on that it is posters ?

Tortington · 20/11/2010 16:22

cos it is rape.

you dont go from sleep to penetration.

its like saying i was feeding the dog and he stuck his dick in.

i was hoovering the stairs, he came up behind and stuck his knob in.

becuase you have a vagina - it doens't mean its's yours to access whenever you want.

there as no foreplay, no indication that there was going to be possible sexual activity. no point at which the OP could say, ' not now i'm tired'

she woke up to find she had been penetrated.

i don't know how you can dress that up to be anything but rape.

if the op believes it or not - lables it this way or not - makes no mind. it is what it is.