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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

not to have sex with DH?

365 replies

lotswife · 19/11/2010 15:01

My libido's been a bit crap since DC3 was born. I used to be up for it loads, but it got harder and harder to get turned on/in the mood - needed more effort on DH's part which he just didn't put in.

We had some talks about it as he was feeling rejected and unloved and I was feeling hassled and like he was only interested in sex.

He said he'd try to make more of an effort to make me feel desired (rather than like a blow up doll - his idea of foreplay was just to grab my tits or my bits and then expect me to be ready and waiting).

Then there were two incidents which really shook me. About 6 months ago I was asleep in DC2's bed (she'd been crying and I'd gone to soothe her and fallen asleep). DC2 had woken up and climbed over me to go and play with the other DCs. DH came to find me - and I woke up with him pulling up my nightie and parting my buttocks. I said 'what are you doing?' - but quietly as I thought DC1 was asleep in the other bed (v disoriented). He said "you're very wet, so I thought I'd take advantage" and put his cock in me! I shoved him away and we had a huge row.

I thought it was totally inappropriate (even though the DCs weren't in the room), and he kept saying that I was wet so he thought I wanted it (wanted what?! I was asleep). I felt really dirty and disgusting and like DH didn't respect me at all as a person.

We barely had sex after that. I just had no desire towards him at all. Then last week he was hassling me again - I was just about to drop off to sleep and he was a bit tipsy after a work night out - and I said I wasn't in the mood and he said I was never in the mood and it wasn't a marriage without sex.

I said that it was hard to fancy someone who'd just stick their cock in their sleeping wife. He said I was making excuses.

We've barely talked since. AIBU?

OP posts:
Mumcentreplus · 20/11/2010 00:40

i feel you have this opinion of me and I would like to let you know this is not true perhaps its your perception of me..just want to clear that up..

Scorpette · 20/11/2010 00:40

MCP, you are misunderstanding what consent fully means. As I explained to you previously, the factor in consent is intent. If you two both agree that you can both try to wake each other with sexual touching as a prelude to turning it into something more (or maybe not - maybe you could just keep it as a little touching), then that is fine. You both like that and that's great. But there is no consent involved with the OP just trying to stick his cock into his wife without prelude. They don't have an agreement that she is happy for him to do this and the way he was doing it made it clear that he just wanted to get his rocks off without caring if she wanted him to or not or even if she was conscious enough to discuss it.

Mumcentreplus · 20/11/2010 00:40
dignified · 20/11/2010 00:41

I just dont get whats hard to understand here . Op has already said he gropes her constantly , grabs her breasts ect ,manipulates her into sex , shes already told him many times that she doesnt like it.

If someone said a man had grabbed their breasts in the street they would receive nothing but support and people would be outraged . So you can be outraged when a stranger does it , but not when its your husband , because hes got rights .

I dont get why people are trying to compare this with sleepily carressing a partener . Is it because it interferes with our definition of a rapist ?

Were more comfortable with the idea of a strange man whos violent to us than the fact were talking about our husbands , fathers and brothers. And the idea , that other women are protected from my husbands sexual assaults , but i am not ,and vice versa , is utterly ridiculous.

Lotswife , it sounds like things have been escalating for a while , starting with him hassling you for sex that you clearly didnt want . Please do be wary of it escalating further . Despite all this talk of sex and libido , i really dont think its about sex at all.

If it was , sureley he would do the things you like in order to have sex more often . Instead he repeatedly does the things you dont like , pretending not to understand . Many men will do this as a form of control , it leaves you feeling humiliated and degraded , as is there intention.

Theres an excellant book called Living With The Dominater . It has a full chapter on " The Sexual Controller , the man who mauls you , trys to initiate sex in ridiculous circumstances ( like when your washing up and the dcs are in the next room ), the man who guilts you into having sex you dont want and who will also have sex with you while your asleep or ill . He doesnt do these things to get himself off , he does it to humiliate you and degrade you.

I dont think its anything to do with sex at all , he is persistantly trying to degrade you by reducing you to a "thing " , and hes going out of his way to make sure you know this.

Its only a few quid on amazon , if you have any trouble getting hold of it pm me and ill happily post it to you. I bought it due to similar reasons to yourself , please do be very aware of this escalating .

And do consider phoning womens aid , they can put you in touch with trained counsellers in your area for free . Failing that , pick a counseller carefully , many of them have their own ideas like some here . The one i saw , after me sobbing and explaining what had been going on simply said " Yes , some men are like that. So tell me , why do you think you dont want to have sex with him ?"
I said " Because he rapes me ".

HerBeatitude · 20/11/2010 00:41

MCP it's only a crime if you make a complaint about it. And if either of you feel it is a crime.

People keep throwing this "black and white" stuff at those of us willing to call it like it is. But we are the ones acknowledging that it is a grey area. Rape, sexual assault, is all about the relationship the couple has. Some couples, who have BDSM relationships, have an agreement that the word "No" doesn't mean no - they use another word instead, their code for a real no.

It's all about consent. If both of you are consenting to the sexual touching within the context of your relationship, then it's not rape or sexual assault, is it? It's really simple, if you are prepared to acknowledge subtlety. It comes down to consent. I always find it amazing how many people are willing to deny that and I do think it's this thing about getting hung up on rape, assault etc. being criminal offences. Yes they are, but that is no reason, within the context of a relationship, not to name them - it doesn't mean that the riot squad will come banging down the front door. It just that that couple will have to start facing up to their problems.

TravestyPotatoBonnet · 20/11/2010 00:46

If you have sex with someone when they are asleep and they go to the police and accuse you of sexual assault then it is possible that you will be charged with sexual assault. That is all.

It doesn't mean that they should/ will feel like they have been sexually assaulted, it just means that legally there was no consent.

HerBeatitude · 20/11/2010 00:46

oh god yes Dignified have been meaning to say that for ages

Men who want more sex, do things to make women want it.

They vacuum the house, they wash up and cook dinner and they make sure the home is a clean and comfortable environment. There are no distractions, no thinking "oh god I'd better do the washing up, no time for a shag, need to clear the draining board so that I can make sandwiches for the school lunches tomorrow"

And they make sure that there is loads of foreplay and loads of pleasure. And that way, their partners really want sex, rather than just resigning themselves to it.

Or have I just been spoilt? Grin

HerBeatitude · 20/11/2010 00:47

And the OP's husband hasn't done any of that.

All he's done, is "not had sex for 2 whole weeks"

Like, what a fucking sacrifice.

She should be grateful for that?

Mumcentreplus · 20/11/2010 00:48

I don't misundersatnd what consent means Scorp it is what it is ..you agree with whats happening or will happen or even could happen..and this can be just in sentiment not absolute...intent is what it is too its the immediate intention of an act how a person may or may not direct themselves towards a specific object/person all I'm saying is OP's DH may not have intended to rape or assault OP...this does not mean he didn't or couldn't ...but what were his true intentions?

dittany · 20/11/2010 00:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HerBeatitude · 20/11/2010 00:51

MCP stop beating yourself up.

If you and your DH are happy and trust each other to touch each other sexually when you are asleep or half asleep, there is no problem. The state doesn't tell you how to organise your sex life - there is no law that says you have to behave in a certain way.

The only law there is, is there supposedly to protect people who don't want it, from being coerced into sex against their will. It doesn't work, but that's not the point here - the point is, that if you and your DH are happy with the way you do things, you don't need to worry. No-one is going to arrest you. Or him. Smile

HerBeatitude · 20/11/2010 00:54

His intentions were to shag her if she didn't complain.

Next time, he may stop her complaining by pushing her head further into the pillow, so that he can claim he didn't realise she was complaining, or he may ignore her complaint altogether.

That's why it needs to be taken seriously. You can't live with someone who won't acknowledge that he doesn't have the right, to do something you didn't want him to do and have no guarantee that he won't do again.

Lovecat · 20/11/2010 00:56

Having just read 11 pages of this thread I am utterly gobsmacked by the number of rape apologists on this thread. The number of female rape apologists. What hope is there for any of our daughters when this is the attitude of supposedly intelligent women?

I despair, I really do.

OP, I do hope you can get some counselling for yourself and work things out, one way or another.

Your DH has behaved like a whinging, entitled brat (and that's not in any way trying to belittle what he's done) and imho he needs to get over himself and take responsibility for what he's done here before you can even think of moving on.

The 'in your sleep' thing is something DH and I have discussed before and he was quite appalled at the idea that people might think it was ok to penetrate their partner while they were unconscious.

Scorpette · 20/11/2010 00:56

No-one will know his intentions - perhaps he himself is unclear as to what he was intending. The point is, it was an unacceptable thing to do. It was demeaning, it was humiliating, it was upsetting, it was a shock and he and the OP has no prior agreement about that sort of thing being okay.

Am going to stop posting now, because this is becoming more of a discussion about the minutiae of consent and intent, etc. This is a real, unpleasant incident that happened to an actual woman and this isn't the place for us to discuss personal opinions in this manner. It doesn't help the OP and turning this into a debating society topic demeans her problems.

pickledsiblings · 20/11/2010 00:57

OP your DH thought that he had your consent. He has told you as much. Do you believe him or do you think that he is a rapist? But he must be a rapist because he penetrated you without your consent, oh but he thought he had it. Ah, but he didn't. And on and on ad infinitum.

If you love each other then I'm sure you'll work it out. A bit of give and take on both sides I think.

YANBU to not have sex with your DH until you have worked together towards a greater understanding of each other's needs.

dignified · 20/11/2010 01:01

but it also sounds strange that all of a sudden a man who has never attempted this type of domineering sexual act does so...not saying it cannot happen .

Shes already said he engages in sexually domineering behaviour. He grabs her breasts , guilts and harrases her for sex she doesnt want , doesnt engage in foreplay and just trys to stick his cock in her , and refuses to listen to her feelings.

Id say those things are sexually domineering actually ,wouldnt you ? I think that this latest incidant is simply an escalation of that.

I think there is sometimes a general misunderstanding about these things , men who behave like this arent all desperate for sex trying to get off , some of them are doing it deliberateley to degrade and humilate their partner , in just the same way a man will withold finances to a woman to degrade and humilate her . Same intention , differant tool.

The thing with doing it sexually is its actually a lot more acceptable than witholding money , or yelling and screaming.

Mumcentreplus · 20/11/2010 01:07

Herbe I'm not but thanks, what I'm concerned about is some believe the fact I don't immediately jump on the rapist idea is because somehow i want to let this rapist/sexual abuser off by down playing his actions..i don't ...i completely agree with Scorp this was an unacceptable thing to do humiliating and upsetting..this is obvious..the OP would no have posted otherwise...I'm just observing the point the DH in this situation my have not intended to make his partner feel this way and to me this is a legitimate point and does not negate what has happened...

dignified · 20/11/2010 01:08

I wonder how he intends to make her feel when he gropes at her breasts , despite her saying she doesnt like it .

Mumcentreplus · 20/11/2010 01:09

dig i did not read the whole thread so my opinion has been shaped on OP's first post...

Mumcentreplus · 20/11/2010 01:11

mannn i need to read it don't I?...

HerBeatitude · 20/11/2010 01:12

MCP it's true, he may not have meant to make her feel like this.

But he did. And she told him. And he is denying the reality of her feelings and refusing to acknowledge that he did.

So how is that better than intending to make her feel like this?

Because I don't think it is - I think it's on a par.

You just cannot live with someone who denies your reality. Well you can, but not long term, not without going mad. This man is denying this woman's reality and if he continues to do so, the relationship hasn't got a future. Not a good one, anyway.

WriterofDreams · 20/11/2010 01:16

Mumcentreplus I think you're asking whether touching your partner as he sleeps would make you an abuser. The answer would be no, but only if you know that this is something your partner likes. If your partner had clearly expressed no desire for sex or for sexual touching then this would be abusive as you are violating his personal space without his permission. I was sexually abused as a child and one of the most disturbing things that happened to me was to have fingers put gently in my mouth without my consent. Not an overtly sexual act, but extremely violating as I did not want it to happen.
Chances are the scenario you're talking about is one in which you're both waking up in the morning and you stroke his chest/penis in order to get a reaction. Once you do get a reaction, such as a touch in response, a kiss or a verbal invitation, you carry on. If your partner sighed and turned over I'm sure you'd stop. I don't think it's likely that if he got a hard on you would just climb on top of him as he slept, would you?

Incidentally this happened to a male friend of mine. A girl was very aggressively pursuing him and came to his room after a party on the pretext of having a serious problem to talk about. They lay on the bed and talked and then fell asleep. He awoke to find himself naked and her on top of him. He was really shocked and told her to stop, which she did, but she got bolshy with him for leading her on etc. He considered what happened to him to be rape. Bear in mind that he had a very powerful response to her advances, in the sense that he got an erection, but it was in his sleep and thus he didn't realise or consent to what was going on. He was very very upset about what happened but he knew he couldn't tell anyone (apart from me I suppose, as I have a history of being abused and thus am more understanding than others) as he knew he would get a similar reaction to the one on this thread.

A person has a right to sleep safely without fear of anything happening to them. If she had said "Oh I'd like shorter hair" and then woke up with a bob courtesy of her husband would that be ok? Would he be able to claim she wanted it because she had mentioned it earlier? No, it would just be a seriously odd and somewhat violating thing to do. Well she had nothing but a negative response to him on this occasion but it didn't make any difference to him, he just went ahead anyway. That is rape.

OP, regardless of the situation, if a person belittles your feelings or doesn't listen to your point of view it is a very bad sign for a relationship. His attitude needs to change hugely before the relationship can improve, but how that's going to happen is difficult to say.

Mumcentreplus · 20/11/2010 01:21

Ultimately this a relationship between a couple and what may have been acceptable or fun in the past may not be the case now that does not mean both people are on the same page..i was thinking about taking advantage of my DH tonight it's his night off...

dignified · 20/11/2010 01:23

Mcp , She said all that in the first post , all those things are abusive behaviours on their own.

Part of the problem too is that most of us have only ever experienced healthy loving relationships where sex is loving and respectfull. We cannot imagine a man behaving like that , and we dont want to.

A man deliberateley using sex as a way to degrade his partner ? Nooo , there must be a misunderstanding , maybe hes confused or something. We dont like it and dont want to know about it , same as all the other issues that make us uncomfortable.

Had i not had the experience of living with someone like that i might be the same .

Mumcentreplus · 20/11/2010 01:28

I hear all of your arguments ladies..both interesting and thought provoking...just putting a spin on things but ultimately they are sound...