not to have sex with DH?

[lotswife]

My libido's been a bit crap since DC3 was born. I used to be up for it loads, but it got harder and harder to get turned on/in the mood - needed more effort on DH's part which he just didn't put in.

We had some talks about it as he was feeling rejected and unloved and I was feeling hassled and like he was only interested in sex.

He said he'd try to make more of an effort to make me feel desired (rather than like a blow up doll - his idea of foreplay was just to grab my tits or my bits and then expect me to be ready and waiting).

Then there were two incidents which really shook me. About 6 months ago I was asleep in DC2's bed (she'd been crying and I'd gone to soothe her and fallen asleep). DC2 had woken up and climbed over me to go and play with the other DCs. DH came to find me - and I woke up with him pulling up my nightie and parting my buttocks. I said 'what are you doing?' - but quietly as I thought DC1 was asleep in the other bed (v disoriented). He said "you're very wet, so I thought I'd take advantage" and put his cock in me! I shoved him away and we had a huge row.

I thought it was totally inappropriate (even though the DCs weren't in the room), and he kept saying that I was wet so he thought I wanted it (wanted what?! I was asleep). I felt really dirty and disgusting and like DH didn't respect me at all as a person.

We barely had sex after that. I just had no desire towards him at all. Then last week he was hassling me again - I was just about to drop off to sleep and he was a bit tipsy after a work night out - and I said I wasn't in the mood and he said I was never in the mood and it wasn't a marriage without sex.

I said that it was hard to fancy someone who'd just stick their cock in their sleeping wife. He said I was making excuses.

We've barely talked since. AIBU?

Scorp, thats not what i'm saying either, my relationship is my own between me and my DH you can make it sound as sordid as you desire...I'm saying what the OP has described on the face of it sounds disgraceful and disgusting.. but it also sounds strange that all of a sudden a man who has never attempted this type of domineering sexual act does so...not saying it cannot happen but relationships are between 2 people not us and them... it does not sit right with me and I will voice my opinion or misgivings , does not mean you will agree with my opinion, no matter your indignation...

Dittany - yes, I did think, thank you. As with all named things rape as a concept is defined by us as individuals, and again as a society. It is naive to think that all individuals define it in the same way ( this applies to many things). The important point is that societies firstly attempt to define it by putting into words as a law. That is still insufficient, so in each case we require real human beings to interpret those words in light of what they believe actually took place.

I understand this sounds cold and clinical but life is horribly messy, and when applying a sanction like criminal law this is the best method we have come up with over many thousands of years to determine at what point behaviour goes from acceptable, to unacceptable, to criminal. It is imperfect and in some (perhaps many) cases it is unfair. But it is what we have, and an MN jury tasting the blood of a gunfight is no substitute.

Good luck OP.

This thread is drivin me to despair.

Peering, if your definition means that violence has to be inherent, even if it is only implied, what about the case I gave where a Down's Syndrome girl was repeatedly raped in her sleep and never even knew about it until someone caught her attacker doing it and he confessed? What about men who assault people who are in comas? Hell, what about necrophiliacs?! The person being assaulted has no understanding of anything going on and therefore cannot perceive any type of violence so by your understanding, they haven't been raped! Absolute madness.

MCP, just because it sounds strange to you that a previously okay man would do something bad, doesn't mean it can't happen! That is so illogical - everyone who ever does anything bad, however major or minor, has been a good person up unto that point! I think your posts say a lot about you needing to make things like this okay in your mind.

Its one thing to fondle and caress. I'll go to bed, DP asleep, cuddle up to him, he may become both more awake, things progress.

Its quite another thing to wake to have somebody about to be penetrating you like you are just a hole to be fucked. And in your child's bed, when they could come in any moment. When was the consent? If the OP had not woken, he'd have carried on.

Absolutely dittany.

Scorpette the way that I defined rape earlier included lack of consent due to being unconscious, intoxicated or incapacitated. I didn't include being asleep in that because I feel it's likely that someone who is asleep is likely to wake up if someone touches them sexually; the criteria for them being awake and conscious then applies.

There are so many points on here that I want to respond to, but my mind is now tired and befuddled with wine. I haven't changed my opinion that, based on the limited information I read, that isn't what I would define as rape (but if the OP defined it as such, I would revise that). But I've taken on board what's been said, and it's certainly made me question and reassess my perceptions and preconceptions.

Out of the 2 times i have been raped and sexually assaulted, the most traumatic was being gropped and leared over by my foster dad on holiday with everyone watching, but no one saying or doing anything.

When i became visably upset and told my foster mum why, she dragged me up to the hotel room and locked me in, told me i was being stupid and attention seeking.

Being raped was far more brutal, physically speaking, but i recovered mentally a lot quicker from that then the sexual assault.
Probably because it was never dissmissed that i had been raped, it was 'classic' in how it happened, it was never questioned.

I never made a formal complaint against my foster parents, purely because when it was happening, no one thought to intervene, no one could possibly understand what i felt, i would get told off for complaining, it wasn't the worst thing.
I had no bruises, no marks, no dna.
No one was going to believe me.

And Scorpette I'm shocked at your account of a woman with DS being raped in her sleep, and that she didn't wake up. That's utterly awful, and it gave me pause for thought in my assumption that someone would certainly wake up if they were touched sexually in a prolonged way.

peering thank you for reading the posts properly and thinking about them. Even if you don't change your mind, just being willing to consider a different POV is valuable IMO.

Dittany, you can of course keep banging your drum ever louder in an attempt to drown out dissenting voices, of which there are many on this thread. That is your right and good on you for exercising it. My real concern is the willingness for a group of people with no real knowledge or understanding of a situation other than the glimpse afforded by an MN post leaping on the opportunity to state with such apparent certainty that a real person has committed an appalling criminal act deserving of many years in prison.

Anyway, it's late and I'm typing on a phone. Goodnight, and OP I hope you sort things out, no one deserves to be feel like you clearly do and that needs to be resolved.

Scorp i said that already and this is not about how I feel but about what the OP has said..not everyone will see things in the same way, the fact i put a different opinion or express different ideas to you does not mean I need to make everything ok in my mind just that everything is not as simple as you believe in yours perhaps?...I cannot and will not try to change how the OP feels thats not my point, but to say nothing or no other feelings attitudes exist, that is flawed.

She did wake up. And he stuck his cock in her. That's from the OP. Here "DH came to find me - and I woke up with him pulling up my nightie and parting my buttocks. I said 'what are you doing?' - but quietly as I thought DC1 was asleep in the other bed (v disoriented). He said "you're very wet, so I thought I'd take advantage" and put his cock in me! I shoved him away and we had a huge row."

Are people confused because it was only momentary? Or because he didn't ejaculate? Or what? Please, can someone who is disagreeing that this is rape please explain why the scenario that I have just copied from the OP is not rape? I am trying to understand. It doesn't seem to me that he did anything to ascertain consent, implied or otherwise.

Hi OP
I've read most of the replies on here up to about page 7 so apologies if any of what I say is a repeat of stuff you've already read.

I'm not going to get into the rape/attempted rape argument but what disturbed me the most about what you've posted is his denial of your feelings. He is telling you that it's "your problem". He is telling you that you are "ridiculous". He is dismissive of your feelings and doesn't seem to feel - or if he is feeling it, isn't expressing it - remorse.

This worries me more than anything else you've written. I was in a similar relationship with a very controlling man. I would said whilst I was in that I was happy (probably about 50% of the time I was, and about 50% of the time I was devastated, walking on eggshells, trying to please him and understand him). I would have said he was a good partner at the time.

When I got out, I realised that it had been very emotionally abusive and it was shocking to have the veil fall from my eyes and realise how much controlling behaviour that I had normalised.

I went to see my GP and waited about 6 weeks for counselling. It was very helpful. As others have said, joint counselling with someone who is controlling can often backfire badly. I would recommend going on your own to start off with so that you can understand the dynamics of what's going on here.

I'd also recommend reading Patricia Evans' book "The Verbally Abusive Relationship". That doesn't mean screaming and shouting (although I had this) but also other ways of being controlling through verbal abuse, including countering and discounting, examples of which you give in your posts.

It sounds as if you have tried very hard to engage with your husband. And it sounds as if all he'd needed to do was show a little remorse for things to have been slightly improved and for you to feel that he cared about he. He's failed to do that and this was a problem I had with my ex. I think the lack of remorse and the dismissal of my feelings was the most painful thing of all about our relationship.

Long post - sorry! - but so much of what you've posted resonated with me and I think you are right to be concerned about the way you are being treated and you are definitely NBU to not want to be intimate with someone who doesn't seem to show you much respect or empathy.

Good luck.

Sorry for all the typos! It's late!

Sorry to hear this has happened to the OP and the distress it has caused..it fucking sucks usually I am very gung ho about rape/sexual assault but in this case I'm not so sure and will admit that...

MCP, the point is, you're talking about your feelings about this case, which you are entitled to, whilst me and others are looking at the facts of what happened as described by the OP and what the legal definition is also. I said you seem to want to make this okay in your mind, not because we disagree, but because most of your posts really do seem to be about that; you making it better for your own mind (btw, I wasn't trying to suggest your personal life was sordid, sorry if I gave that impression)

Peering, there are many accounts of women being sexually assaulted or raped whilst asleep and not knowing it has happened until they wake up near the end or never wake up (ie the crime is found because it's recorded on CCTV, or someone finds them at it). Old ladies with dementia are assaulted and raped and have no understanding of what's going on and aren't actually distressed or resisting. Rape is about power, not violence or even sex and some sex crimes are committed 'gently'.

BTW, I think this is a case of sexual assault, not rape, as I keep stating.

From the legal definition of rape and consent- "...the defendant (A) has the responsibility to ensure that (B) consents to the sexual activity at the time in question. It will be important for the police to ask the offender in interview what steps he took to satisfy him that the complainant consented."

You can't obtain consent from someone who is asleep. It really is that simple.

But that facts are according to you and others I have abused my DH and him me...there was no consent so immediately it becomes a crime...

Also the fact I'm not outraged by the fact my DH touched me while I was asleep or dozing makes me somehow complicit or in denial about his intentions...

I don't want to make this ok in my mind, just want to throw some other opinions and ideas into the mix does not mean what you believe or others is not true but to explore other intentions,ideas or opinions is not wrong and does not make you a person who is compliant or complacent about a subject...