Toxic MIL or am I overreacting? If the former, how to get rid or limit access?

[figcake]

Not a regular but I would really appreciate some good advice. I have been in a bad state for a few days, suffered insomnia all night last night so I am absolutely exhausted and really need to get things straight in my mind.

This is dh's computer and he works from home though is not around atm so I might not be able to post replies as regulary as I would like so please bear with me.

History is that dh and I have been together for around 13 years since I was in my early 20s. MIL always disapproved of me and felt suspicious of why I hooked up with her son because I am not from their (European) country even though I spoke the language reasonably well (having learnt it at school) and had visted there a few times prior to meeting dh. I was younger than dh/ educated to postgrad level/ had already bought my first flat at the time/ not really interested in her obsession with the Christian faith etc. whereas dh was a bit of a dreamer/ living at home with mum/ never earned more than min wage/ not academic etc. So basically very different backgrounds which meant that I was ok with making allowances for their odd attitude towards me.

Dh came to live with me at my home in the UK after we married and things were rocky for a few years (mainly due to his family interfering in every aspect of our lives from a distance and dh being too spineless to stand up to them also due to the fact that I was quite young and this was the first proper relationship either of us had been in) - his aunt even went so far as to ask him what contraception I was using. He left a few times and moved back with his mum found work back home etc but before dc1 was born moved back, found interesting work to do in the UK, showed commitment for the first time ever and we sorted out our differences and went on to have dc2 etc. and felt generally happy and positive.

My mil did occasionally stir things up from a distance via phonecalls to dh but the distance meant that she could not visit v often to do this face to face. She has been trying to persuade dh to bring only the dcs to see her abroad ever since dc1 was 2 weeks old and fully bf but dh basically fudged the issue.

She was invited to visit a few weeks ago and suddenly announced that she was bringing her other son with her who was always v critical of me and whom I would not have invited. He has never even sent the dcs birthday cards or ecards despite being v well-off with few commitments and a bimbo girlfriend whom he showers with useless expensive gifts of the knickers-perfume-chocolates variety all the time. However, in the interests of maintaining harmony and not wishing to deny the dcs the chance to know their uncle I agreed that they could both stay over.

DH and I felt that overall, things went well. I played the polite and interested DIL making teas, engaging in mind-numbing chit chat in their language (despite not wanting to as we practice one-parent-one-language). I talked to dcs in English as that is usual for us, they do not know DHs mother tongue. She understands next to no English.

On the first day they arrived, dh woke up late and needed to rush to meet their flight so we agreed to meet at a certain restaurant in London and I agreed to bring the dcs there at an agreed time, at my own expense. We got soaked in a downpour as our umbrella got jammed (not their fault I know but I did not have the option of returning home obv) and when we got there, we waited ages in our wet clothes but they did not show up so after an hour, we ate I took the dcs home in the dark. DHs mobile had been switched off and I would not have known their numbers as I dont really have much to do with them. I later found out that their flight had been delayed and mil cooly implied that we should have waited even longer. By the time they turned up at our house it was almost bedtime the dcs were pretty hyper after a full-on day and dcs started chucking his mecanno towards mil whist laughing and making his usual aeroplane noises. dh went onto the computer (in the other room as he had to print things for their posh restaurant reservation later that evening) and did not come out for an hour as he was playing soduku (sp?) and is generally unsociable. The discipling was left to me even though DH knows that I do not feel comfortable around them. I explaned to ds2 in English not to do that and showed him the right way to play using the usual positive parenting techniques. I went off to cook dcs supper as it was already too late. I was not in the room with them at the time to give them space to get to know the Dcs (they barely know them) . Obviously, once the time came to serve their dinner, I did try to divert their attention to get them to eat (they are fussy eaters who usually eat at around 4.30 rather than 6 and are def not used to evening visitors).

We traipsed around town with them for four days catering to their every whim and they never implied they were unhappy about anything.

Last week, MIL used DHs work email address (never usually does as we have a family address) to send this to him. He tried to keep it from me but I fell upon it on dc2s birthday. In translation:

Hi

I got back OK but I feel heavy hearted wrt your family situation. I actually needed several days to get my thoughts together to write this.

I know that you personally did everything that you possibly could to make sure that we had a good time.

DS presented himself well and seemed ready to learn a load of things but his mother seemed jealous of our presence and tried to butt in every time he wanted to interact with us - that is definitely the reason why he gets told off a lot at school. He needs to spend more time with other children of his age and you need to set that up as soon as possible. You both need to go out and start meeting other parents more and if Figcake can manage it, she should let him express himself and not anticipate every situation. I think that a short break (DH and DS) to visit FIL at Christmas will do him good

You all need to get out of the house more and meet people. I hope Figcake sees through her idea of taking up an activity - even though it wont be easy for her- in order to see how her current life has cut her off from reality.

She should try not to put on any more weight as it is not good for the heart and increases the risk of other cardiac conditions.

You need to finish all the works on your house as soon as possible and liquidate evrything that is no longer useful to DCs.

As always, we think you personally (i.e DH) are a great parent.

With love to you (i.e only dh). Mum

i'm currently on page 4 of this thread.
i'll go back and read the rest but before i do that can i emphasis what has probably already been said between pages 4-8?

(1) Get your passport, your children's passports and put them in a safe place that only you know about so that they aren't taken anywhere.

(2) Get a divorce.

(3) you always always have a choice.

incredibly sad to be reading this thread.

right, will go back to page 4.

I wouldn´t bother sending the email.

MIL is the least of your worries.

He has been screaming at your parents.

That´s abuse.

Can´t you get him out of the house on the grounds that he has been abusive in the past & you fear that things are heading that way again?

My parenets would never take my husbands side in a situation like this.

Figtree
Please see a lawyer or solicitor just to get some information you will feel stronger for it, no one else need know.
Re: dcs and they like having him around, when you separate they will 'see' more of him you do realise that.
When I divorced ex spent 95% more time with our dcs than ever he did when we were together, that was another good thing about doing it. I knew that would happen.

Your parents do indeed sound in fear of him as you do. Take care.

What squitten said.

figcake

Along with all the other excellent advice which I really hope you will follow, I wonder if I could suggest that you have a proper conversation with your parents without your H around (I think the D we normally use is redundant in this case.......). You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about what they think and feel or only speaking to them when your DH is around or hearing his end of conversations with them. Is it at all possible that you could take the DCs to visit their GPs for an afternoon and have a proper heart to heart with them?

It's all about arming yourself with proper information instead of making assumptions that might be wrong - how do they really feel about him? What would be their reaction if you split up? Do they truly understand the situation they're in? Do they know that he's hit you in the past? Do they know the truth about his financial/ employment situation? How could they support you if you left him/ kicked him out?

You know figcake - I've got a horrible feeling that your response to this suggestion would be that there's no way you could speak to your parents alone because your DH wouldn't allow it. I've got a suspicion that the reason you're having to make these assumptions is because you're never able to sit down and have a private honest conversation with them. I hope to God that I'm wrong.......

thanks a lot - we went out with DH and I think the point he was making about having paid up in advance was that he had printed off some discount coupon with an expiry date meaning that it had to be used this weekend.

I do talk to my mother and father on the phone regularly. He does feel suspicious that we talk about him and to be fair, we sometimes do - I do not go round as much as before as he feels that it is not fair that the DCs see so much more of my family. He is also paranoid that they will pick up my parents regional accents (he obviously has a foreign accent himself but abs doesn't think so).

I do agree that he would definitely see them more if we split up but as I said, we get along in a certain way that is hard to describe and do not really have blazing rows or such like. DH explained to me that he thinks that part of his brain is missing (not literally of course) which makes it impossible to understand why I would take such offence.

You don't have to settle. That's all I'll say on the matter. Good luck.

So, he is limiting the kid's time with their maternal grandparents so they see them about the same as the paternal grandparents abroad?

And you don't see a massive problem with his logic?

You are as bad as him. I pity your children.
I no longer feel sorry for you. Here is an example of 'you get the life you deserve'

If you don't see what is wrong in this set up there is really no hope.

Sorry, but the stuff about your parents is ridiculous.

Just because his parents don´t see the children often doesn´t mean that yours should be restricted.

Look, if you don´t love the guy, get divorced.

if you do, carry on as you are.

Figcake - have read through the entire thread. Neither you nor the kids deserve the way your husband and his family are treating you. Please end this toxic state of affairs - for your good and for your children's good.

Figcake: I understand how hard it is to do anything to change the status quo. There seem to be so many psychological barriers and such an immutable inertia.

I'm also in a hopeless marriage. In my case DH has psychological and self-induced medical problems which I've spent years trying to solve for him and only now accepted I can't do anything about and need to get out before they destroy me and our children too.

When you've put up with low-level bad behaviour and made excuses for someone for so long, it's hard to draw your line in the sand. If you've let someone get away with treating you with disrespect, stealing your money, hitting you (in your case), whatever.. it becomes hard to say "this is it - it ends here".

It feels unjustified but really it isn't. It's just that you've got so deep into a dysfunctional relationship that you can no longer see what is reasonable. The reactions on here should tell you that your instincts and suspicions are justified. Your DH's behaviour is unreasonable and nasty, your MIL's is bonkers. Your marriage isn't much of a marriage, never has been and never will be.

It's hard to draw the line but not impossible.

If you're now in your thirties the chances are that your parents are now in their sixties or seventies. From what you've said it doesn't sound as though they are physically or psychologically able to fight your corner for you however much they love you. I don't think you can rely on them any more. You're the key adult in all of your relationships now and need to take control. Don't let your DH bully them and don't let him bully you.

Make a clear plan, be very clear that it's what you want, and execute it.

In my case, I need to have a very difficult conversation with DH. You've made me realise that it is that simple for us.

Given the violence, manipulation and background threats, you don't need to confront your DH in person to end this.

Ideally, see a solicitor first to discuss likely financial outcomes and tactics. Do as others have advised re your children's passports.

Then just do it. Send him a letter, file a divorce petition, do what you need to do.

You're still very young in the grand scheme of things, you know. Don't waste your life in this marriage. Your kids won't thank you for it.

Good luck.

Good luck Mithra, I hope you do get away and start afresh.

"He does feel suspicious that we talk about him"

Ah yes.. if only he applied that to himself too I can't help thinking.

As for a bit of his brain missing, isn't that essentially "I can't help being a twat faced cunt to you, you should accept me as I am or you are being mean"? Which is emotional blackmail. It's also a damn good way of him never having to face up to it and make an effort, he's just excused himself of any responsibility for his own actions.

And restricting access to the DC's grandparents, what an absolute wanker.

he sounds like a passive aggressive controlling LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON

Figcake, I was hoping that a real lawyer would come along and give you some advice. I am not a lawyer but I have worked in family law (disclaimer: quite a long time ago now) so have some knowledge of the area, though I am happy to be corrected by a real lawyer should one happen along.

Obviously I don't know all your financial details but based on the fact that you bought your house before your marriage, it is in your name and your H has never really earned a decent amount so presumably hasn't really contributed to the mortgage, I can't really see him walking away from this marriage with much at all, let alone half your house (I am also assuming that he hasn't supported your career eg by providing childcare while you work and that he hasn't made any huge improvements to the house which would increase its value). In any event, the court's main concern would be to keep a roof over your DC's heads, so even if the house did have to be sold then you could arrange eg not to do this until your youngest DC was 18. It sounds as though he'd take off back to his parents anyway.

Also based on the fact the house is in your name, his previous documented violence towards you and your real fear that he might snatch your children, I can't see any problem at all with you getting an injunction to get him out of the house immediately and to only see the DC under supervision. Someone else would serve the papers on him, he'd be gone and after that you'd only need to see him in court. If that sounds appealing then please give a solicitor a call. If you're anywhere near SW London then Hanne & Co have an excellent family department with experience in cross-border divorce if it comes to that, and are also the largest Legal Aid firm in S London (if Legal Aid still exists).

Good luck :)

DitaVonCheese's advice is pretty much in line with what I was thinking. I am a lawyer, albeit a criminal one, and I did a few months in family when I was training and this scenario does not sound to me like one where he could expect to take much out of this marriage at all.

Go and see a solicitor asap. You almost certainly won't get legal aid but an initial consutation might well be free.

It doesn't sound to me as though anyone that you have mentioned in your life is being at all supportive, even if your parents think they are advising in your best interests. Do you have a friend who you can confide in? Perhaps sit down with her and go through this thread and let her, inevitably, tell you that everyone is giving good advice.

Failing that, here are 8 pages of posts from people who are ready to support you every step of the way. If you do not take action now then you are setting yourself up for a lifetime of regret. Do you honestly want to be still sitting beside this man when you are old?

Well unless he has been the main carer & would be considered for full custody, surely he can just leave & support himself?

Figcake, you have had so much good advice here. I do hope you feel able to take some of it into action. At the very least, speaking to a solicitor about your alternatives must help - at least you know what can or can't be done.

But, what I did want to add, is please don't think that staying in an unhappy relationship is good for your DCs.

My parents have an unhappy relationship. Not as bad as you have described but my DF is an old fashioned man who required DM to do everything. He is quite controlling (turned the power off at the mains when they were first married because she refused to change the radio station to one he preferred), stubborn and antisocial. But not a bad man, he is kind in many ways. My mother was a bright young thing - a party animal, a social person who loved the company of others. Now she is a timid, afraid person with such a narrow world. They stuck together for us, or rather she stuck with him.

We grew up in a house with an Atmosphere. Even now I hate confrontation and will do almost anything to avoid it. I struggle with controlling my emotions and have had incredibly angry outbursts at DH over the years, where the issue could have been resolved much better. And now my parents are old and it is impossible for them to separate, and their issues are becoming things my brother and I now have to resolve/deal with. It is exhausting emotionally and I find I am beginning to resent them, to almost dislike them even though I love them.

Don't leave yourself in a situation that can only get more poisonous. Even if you won't think about it for yourself, it's not good for your children. They deserve better. You deserve better. And remember that a divorce does not mean they'd never see their father again.

Sorry, that's long, but your posts have really struck a chord with me - I can imagine my mother writing this 30 years ago.

Having to retype this! I just went back to see if I had Hadeda's name right and, poof, my letter was gone.

Hadeda, I think you should show your parents your letter. It's incredibly sad. Why did he feel the need to overpower your mother so completely, to stamp the her out of her? She did try.

It was not worth it for him. She was and is unhappy. You children did not grow up in a happy home. He created all the unhappiness, and I think he should answer to it.

Your mother has decades of anger and resentment toward him.

He caught a singing, free wild bird and put it in a cage. And then shocked it when it dared to sing.

Havent read the whole thread but just wanted add this.I am a mil and when my dil got pg at 19 from my just 18 yr old son i didnt take it all that well and was a bit stand offish with them for awhile(i think i can be forgiven for that)Anyway one day my son told me straight that he loved her and would be taking care of both her and the baby and i was to stop being so nasty,to be fair i hadnt been nasty,just shocked and quiet.I was very proud of him as he was actually behaving ib exactly the same way that i had bought them all up. I realised enough was enough and started to get on with it and enjoy the up and coming baby.
I now have a fab little gs and a dil who i am really close to and who has been such a help to me, not least during my recent and unexpected pregnancy.I adore them all and so i think if a an 18 yr old can stand up to his Mum (and i am not soft) then so can an adult male. Good luck.

Hello again, I absolutely agree that it is all great advice and more than I probably deserved. It has helped me so please don't feel frustrated that I am disregarding it. I will see a solicitor. I am not yet ready to dramatically "end it all" but I will hide the passports (am arranging for them to be taken out of the house tonight actually). I will also see a solicitor next week to try and put into place something that prevents DH from taking off with DCs.

Re the house, he has never contributed to the mortgage but we moved a few times during the marriage so we are not talking about the same property throughout. However, they were always in my name, I paid all the bills. DH may have done some small bits of DIY here and there (nothing recently, thats for sure). I do not have a will - I have been meaning to get one for years but I have not got round to it. I realise that I have been stupid. One of the DCs has mild learning difficulties so I worry about this increasingly.

Ledkr - your story sounds really positive though it does not give me hope for my own situation as I reckon that my MIL is a far less reasonable, broad-minded person than yourself. I was around 3 years older than your DIL when I married DH - she was over 60 and was suspicious about me from the very start. She actually though I might be after a passport from her native country (even though I obviously had a full British passport from birth which was much coveted at the time!)

figcake - I could be over-theorising here but are you from an ethnic minority? It's their assumption that you wanted a European passport, that your husband doesn't want your children absorbing your parents' accent and that your MIL isn't interested in one of your children because he looks more like you (possibly darker skinned)? Could a lot of the problems you have come across be racist in origin (not that that makes it any easier)? Just wondering, not that it's really relevant.

figcake - great news that you're going to see a solicitor. Even thought you might not feel that now is the right time to end the relationship, it's good to know where you stand and start to get things in a position where you can divorce him and be financially secure from the outset. You'll also be able to take the solicitor's advice about finances etc so you don't make naive decisions.

However, don't stay with your DH just because of your DCs. You will cope on your own and a happy, confident you will meet new people and maybe a new relationship down the line. It's never too late to get out and socialise.

On a different note, my Uncle spend 50 years of his life working his parent's farm, never went out, only had one relationship. Things changed with the farm and he now keeps mostly horses, so much less work. Admittedly he doesn't have children to care for, but he joined clubs and goes out, has met lots of lovely ladies (some friends, some more ). He's in his 60s now and has a happy life. It's never too late to make a change for the better. Don't let the years you've already wasted turn into 13 more.

spent not spend