Toxic MIL or am I overreacting? If the former, how to get rid or limit access?

[figcake]

Not a regular but I would really appreciate some good advice. I have been in a bad state for a few days, suffered insomnia all night last night so I am absolutely exhausted and really need to get things straight in my mind.

This is dh's computer and he works from home though is not around atm so I might not be able to post replies as regulary as I would like so please bear with me.

History is that dh and I have been together for around 13 years since I was in my early 20s. MIL always disapproved of me and felt suspicious of why I hooked up with her son because I am not from their (European) country even though I spoke the language reasonably well (having learnt it at school) and had visted there a few times prior to meeting dh. I was younger than dh/ educated to postgrad level/ had already bought my first flat at the time/ not really interested in her obsession with the Christian faith etc. whereas dh was a bit of a dreamer/ living at home with mum/ never earned more than min wage/ not academic etc. So basically very different backgrounds which meant that I was ok with making allowances for their odd attitude towards me.

Dh came to live with me at my home in the UK after we married and things were rocky for a few years (mainly due to his family interfering in every aspect of our lives from a distance and dh being too spineless to stand up to them also due to the fact that I was quite young and this was the first proper relationship either of us had been in) - his aunt even went so far as to ask him what contraception I was using. He left a few times and moved back with his mum found work back home etc but before dc1 was born moved back, found interesting work to do in the UK, showed commitment for the first time ever and we sorted out our differences and went on to have dc2 etc. and felt generally happy and positive.

My mil did occasionally stir things up from a distance via phonecalls to dh but the distance meant that she could not visit v often to do this face to face. She has been trying to persuade dh to bring only the dcs to see her abroad ever since dc1 was 2 weeks old and fully bf but dh basically fudged the issue.

She was invited to visit a few weeks ago and suddenly announced that she was bringing her other son with her who was always v critical of me and whom I would not have invited. He has never even sent the dcs birthday cards or ecards despite being v well-off with few commitments and a bimbo girlfriend whom he showers with useless expensive gifts of the knickers-perfume-chocolates variety all the time. However, in the interests of maintaining harmony and not wishing to deny the dcs the chance to know their uncle I agreed that they could both stay over.

DH and I felt that overall, things went well. I played the polite and interested DIL making teas, engaging in mind-numbing chit chat in their language (despite not wanting to as we practice one-parent-one-language). I talked to dcs in English as that is usual for us, they do not know DHs mother tongue. She understands next to no English.

On the first day they arrived, dh woke up late and needed to rush to meet their flight so we agreed to meet at a certain restaurant in London and I agreed to bring the dcs there at an agreed time, at my own expense. We got soaked in a downpour as our umbrella got jammed (not their fault I know but I did not have the option of returning home obv) and when we got there, we waited ages in our wet clothes but they did not show up so after an hour, we ate I took the dcs home in the dark. DHs mobile had been switched off and I would not have known their numbers as I dont really have much to do with them. I later found out that their flight had been delayed and mil cooly implied that we should have waited even longer. By the time they turned up at our house it was almost bedtime the dcs were pretty hyper after a full-on day and dcs started chucking his mecanno towards mil whist laughing and making his usual aeroplane noises. dh went onto the computer (in the other room as he had to print things for their posh restaurant reservation later that evening) and did not come out for an hour as he was playing soduku (sp?) and is generally unsociable. The discipling was left to me even though DH knows that I do not feel comfortable around them. I explaned to ds2 in English not to do that and showed him the right way to play using the usual positive parenting techniques. I went off to cook dcs supper as it was already too late. I was not in the room with them at the time to give them space to get to know the Dcs (they barely know them) . Obviously, once the time came to serve their dinner, I did try to divert their attention to get them to eat (they are fussy eaters who usually eat at around 4.30 rather than 6 and are def not used to evening visitors).

We traipsed around town with them for four days catering to their every whim and they never implied they were unhappy about anything.

Last week, MIL used DHs work email address (never usually does as we have a family address) to send this to him. He tried to keep it from me but I fell upon it on dc2s birthday. In translation:

Hi

I got back OK but I feel heavy hearted wrt your family situation. I actually needed several days to get my thoughts together to write this.

I know that you personally did everything that you possibly could to make sure that we had a good time.

DS presented himself well and seemed ready to learn a load of things but his mother seemed jealous of our presence and tried to butt in every time he wanted to interact with us - that is definitely the reason why he gets told off a lot at school. He needs to spend more time with other children of his age and you need to set that up as soon as possible. You both need to go out and start meeting other parents more and if Figcake can manage it, she should let him express himself and not anticipate every situation. I think that a short break (DH and DS) to visit FIL at Christmas will do him good

You all need to get out of the house more and meet people. I hope Figcake sees through her idea of taking up an activity - even though it wont be easy for her- in order to see how her current life has cut her off from reality.

She should try not to put on any more weight as it is not good for the heart and increases the risk of other cardiac conditions.

You need to finish all the works on your house as soon as possible and liquidate evrything that is no longer useful to DCs.

As always, we think you personally (i.e DH) are a great parent.

With love to you (i.e only dh). Mum

So, both women need to sort this out and the DH needs to get used to the transition between his mother being in charge anf now you

I disagree that your husband cannot change. Mine has - he is a wonderful man but comes from a pretty dysfunctional family and it took him a long time and some serious stand offs to learn that he could and should back me up when his family were behaving unreasonably towards me. He does it now and I think they have been pretty shocked... but I also don't doubt that he is more respected.

I don't think it sounds a good idea for you to go at Xmas at all... and this could be a first big stand so that he starts to realise how serious you are. I also don't think you should be involving FIL in MIL's emails etc.

The email needs your DH to respond shortly and succintly direct to MIL (and then you need to run for cover as things will get worse before they get better).

What worries me about the email is the mention of 'liquidating' etc. I hope your DH isn't being two faced and disrespecting you which is worse than just avoiding the situation.

It is miserable but it can get better.

But hobgoblin the Mil is not head of the household. Op is.

I thought "liquidate" meant get rid of the stuff the children have outgrown-declutter.

Don´t think it´s any more sinister than that tbh.

Wow! That sounds unpleasant.

How would YOU react, figleaf, if your mother/father had sent an email disparaging your DH? If you know that you wouldn't tolerate your parents behaving like this towards your DH then that should tell you something about him allowing it. How many other e-mails have there been that you have not seen??

My gran was pretty toxic. As far as she was concerned the sun shone out of my dad's backside. My mum overheard her once saying "oh, she's a nice girl, I suppose but not for our boy!"- noone would have been good enough for her boy. My mum was able to bear it because my dad never let his mother away with it. In fact at my christening, apparently I was crying and my dad went to see to me. My gran told my mum in no uncertain terms that it wasn't right my "poor" dad should have to see to the baby and had a little rant. My dad fetched her coat, told her he wouldn't allow her to talk about his wife like that and drove her home right then and there, despite her pleading and tears! She NEVER directly criticised my mum again. I think your DH needs to make it clear to his mum where his loyalties lie, tbh

Fig, I could have written your OP almost word for word, I can imagine your stress, I've lived through it too - the stuff my MIL has been shocking, but I have read worse stories on Mumsnet which is bizarre but it helps.

Obviously my dh is not yours but I made it very clear to mine that he had a family, me and his dc- if he kept siding with her/not speaking up- defending my honour etc- then I would go. I have gone as far as kicking him out when I thought I was going to have a breakdown. That scared him and he did buck his ideas up. I never gave him an ultimatum that he could not see his mother but I made it very clear that if they (PIL) were to disrespect the mother of their grandchildren I would not roll over and take it.

You have to make it VERY clear to his mother that you will not tolerate her behaviour and do not under any circumstances let your children go alone to visit her- that sends an awful message to them IMO, this was asked for in my case and I refused point blank.

If they can act properly and courteously to you then I would still see them but that trust has to be earnt- they would not be staying in my house again. pffffffffpt!

Jooly, your dad rocks- atta boy LOL.

But the problem doesn´t seem to be between OP & MIL-or not until the email.

OP said she thought that the visit was OK.

Hobb - in my Italian family (and I generalize because it is large) mama is queen. Depends upon the personality of the son - some are henpecked and smoered into oblivion, and like it or can't be bothered to change it. Others work out how to tread a fine line between loyalty to mama and their wife.
I have found a little bit of flattery goes a long way with Italian mamas - once they think that you love them and adore them too, and hang off their every word, they will love you. It is just a case of showing respect, but also showing them you have teeth too. Italian women (I generalize) tend to be strong willed, and respect strength in others. They remind me a little of Irish catholic mothers, but then that figures as Italians are usually catholic. They kind of become the 'queen mother' if you get it right.
The DH is disrespectful and weak, but the OP needs to get a strategy or this all will blow up into a massive family feud. I predict it.

diddl they have a chequered history- there is baggage there and OP was cautious, she wasn't thrilled at th eprospect of the visit

Madam that's you, you're not not a mama's boy- umm are you?

Mil is not head of the household. Well in the Op's case she is because her dear mummy's boy has given her the role.

Well op's story resonates with me (I'm wondering if they're from the same country) and assumes that she's head of the household - I keep reminding her she's not - she's mother to her kids and I'm mother to mine - but no use!

It will get worse - it's odd feeling so intruded on by people who live in another country but the influence of toxic people is wide. It WILL get worse so your dh needs to sort it.Now.

And if the mil fights back and gets more manipulative and your dh feels all bad over it - make it clear to him that it's his mother causing the issues and not you.

She is divorced and she has the cheek to interfere in their marriage! Well, looks like Fil is away but still in receipt of her 'kind' missives . Tell dh to shove off if he loves and admires her so much. It will only get worse. Don't cow tow to anyone, and I speak as the daughter of parents celebrating fifty years married this week. I was taught to demand, and command respect. It works. You should try it, I heartily recommend it.

Listen to LoveRedShoes OP, she has words of wisdom. I have had an overbearing MIL situation in the past (also Italian but let's not get into that) and there was interfering left right and centre from MIL, PIL, even BIL on occasion, and also the grandmother. One day I just let her have it, told her exactly why she wasn't to come round uninvited whenever she felt like it and disrupt the DCs routine, and why she wasn't to question every tiny parenting decision I made, among other things.

It worked a charm. She butted right out and has never criticised me since, only made grandmotherly enquiries about dc's health education etc. etc. At first there was an uneasy truce, now we are perfectly able to communicate civilly although there are many things I still cannot stand about her (and her family).

It's not your DH that needs to sort it but you. She is challenging you like a female lioness defending her territory. Now she is encroaching on your territory and you need to show her the boundaries.

Don't have any more sleepless nights OP, fire off an equally vicious e-mail to her, replying to each point in turn and marvelling at her ability to judge a family's situation on the basis of 1? 2? visits a year?.

You also could perhaps consider addressing the language issue with her. OPOL sometimes needs a bit of explaining to the uninitiated. We do it in our family and tbh I don't like it, it makes me feel awkward and can spoil the flow of ordinary conversation. At family gatherings I tend to discipline the children in their language just so everyone can understand where I'm coming from.

Best of luck!

I have heard it said that you cannot change other people, only yourself. Seems particuarly apt in your situation. You certainly cannot change your MIL and I have a feeling that your DH has spent so long under the thumb of his mother that you are never going to be able to change him either.

This leaves you with a very clear choice in my opinion: Are you prepared to put up with this kind of treatment for the rest of your life? Are you prepared to live with a man who will always put his mother and her wishes before yours?

I wouldn't do it but the decision is yours

Oh such a shame, I wrote a long post but it has disappeared. Basically, I took on board a lot of what you all said and told DH that he was not being fair in letting her write such unacceptable things about me. I said (once again) that I did not want to stay with FIL in Belgium over Christmas - I had said this at least ten times before but he was still happily seeking out Trunkis on the Internet today so not really taking it seriously. But something may have clicked today.

He called MIL while I was taking the DCs up to bed and said to her 'I am passing you over to Figcake ..she will explain what the problem is'. I simply said 'I will write you an email reply as right now, the DCs bedtime is more important' and hung up. While we were reading in bed, I heard DH on the phone to her - it sounded quite loud, possibly shouting so the message may have got through? He came into the bedroom and stood there in silence for 5 minutes while the DCs read aloud, staring at us. I am not going to ask him what happened as I know from previous experience that he considers conversations with his family to be private so would not tell me anyway.

I need to write to her, I want to copy in FIL so he is in the loop as to what has happened.

Custardo's suggestion is brilliant (below) as it really sums up what needs to be said (as opposed to what could be said - I cannot bring myself to print some of the over-emotional and crude stuff that has crossed my mind since this happened). I need someone to translate it into French for me (she is really pedantic and would use my rusty written language skills as proof of how rubbish I am generally). Would anyone be able to help?

"dear MIL,

i saw your e-mail and have considered your comments. I consider myself an excellent parent and whilst each mother does things differently it is rude to openly citicise, especially to her husband.
Similarly it is rude to comment on a persons weight and social life. If you have any further criticism, please do not hesitate to ring me directly as i hope you can appreciate it puts your son in an awkward position. Please don't make him choose between us.

yours sincerely"

"while it was lovely to see her, you are surprised and saddened at how rude her email was, when you went out of your way to make her feel welcome. She is always welcome to visit your home but it is your home and you do not expect her to criticise your weight, parenting or anything else."

with some of that in the letter too if possible. I will make a donation to the NSPCC in lieu of translation fees if that is OK as I know that this is time-consuming.

I really wish that I was more mature, stronger, firmer, better at dealing with confrontational people but I guess I am not (nor could I have anticipated her email - if anything, I fully expected a 'thank you for having me...'. I feel really cross about how she puts me down for most people think that it's DH who has done pretty well for himself in hooking up with me, just not his family.

I forgot to say that DH later told me that they even dared to look down on my house (decent Victorian NW London semi) even though I purchased it pre DCs with no financial help from DH. When they went out for their posh dinner in Mayfair they looked at all those ridiculously expensive £££££ mansions and said to DH something alon the lines of: ' Those are REAL houses which we would be proud to say we own, your's is a dump in comparison'.

Btw MIL lives in a rented studio flat in an unknown backwater as she cannot afford to buy there even though it is ridiculously cheap in the Belgian Ardennes.

I could provide similar accounts wrt their relative lack of XY & Z, yet they constantly recycle this notion of ME being jealous of THEM.

I hate it all really; my parents treat my DH like they would their own son and he knows and has acknowledged that they would never behave in such a way.

I thought I would make a start...but sorry I don't have accents on this.

Chere Belle-mere

J'ai vu le mail que vous avez envoye et j'ai refleche sur le contenus.

Je me considere comme un parent excellent, et pendant que chaque mere fait les choses dans une maniere differente, a mon avis, il est vraiment impolis de critiquer quelqu'un comme ca, especialement a un mari.

Egalement, ce n'est pas gentille de parler comme ca du poids ou vie sociale d'une personne. Si vous voulez continuer a me critiquer, n'hesitez pas a me contacter directement. Surement, vous appreciez que c'est vraiement difficile pour votre fils - vous le mettez dans une position tres difficle. S'il vous plait, il faut pas demander qu'il fait un choix entre nous....

I am sorry it is not perfect...perhaps wait for someone else to improve it.

Best of luck. She sounds DIRE.

x

Oh God, I am embarrassed to read that (my translation). someone, please come along and correct it!

She sounds like she needs to marry my FIL - he pulled exactly this sort of crap when we got together, including coming for dinner after we got engaged and then sending a letter a few days later saying that "marriage is about more than regular sex and food" and "would DH still "love" me if I became disfigured or disabled " (I'm 9 years younger...)

Personal experience - you've done the right thing making DH stick up for you. It will probably make things difficult between him and his mum for a while (it did for DH and his dad) but it is a phase that has to happen.

If it's any comfort FIL has grown out of it now and is actually very nice these days - he jumped to some bloody awful conclusions early on, BUT it did need some very very strong, completely out of character responses from DH himself. I tried emailing him with a very long, well thought out and heartfelt email...his response began "thank you for your note," and he certainly didn't take it seriously so coming from me it didn't matter. DH actually had a pretty rough relationship with his dad for a few years because of it but their relationship is now better than it ever was as FIL now respects DH as an adult in a way he definitely didn't before.

Good luck - interfering toxic in laws can put horrendous strain on a relationship.

God this just gets worse. Are you telling me they all went out to dinner, a posh meal in a fancy Mayfair restaurant, and left you at home? Minding the grandchildren, like the parlourmaid?

Good, write your letter. But as for your husband considering his family chats private and will not discuss them with you, that tells me, in all sincerity, your marriage is doomed. No relationship will flourish with that dogmatic, draconian attitude. He is a non professional, you bought the family home before you met him, where does he and his family get off on telling you what you are worth?

Tell you what, they have not one ounce of class or decency. Rather than win her round or tell her how it is, I would be turfing him out to go and live with her and her wonderful ideas. What the heck does that attitude show your children? He does not discuss his mother with you?!

And why is your dh telling you that she looked down on your home? That strikes me as rather cruel. He knows it will hurt and anger you, but he doesn't want to deal with it, be a man and pull his mother up on it. He wants to control access to fil and yet he knows you are spitting mad, he made sure of it.