Toxic MIL or am I overreacting? If the former, how to get rid or limit access?

[figcake]

Not a regular but I would really appreciate some good advice. I have been in a bad state for a few days, suffered insomnia all night last night so I am absolutely exhausted and really need to get things straight in my mind.

This is dh's computer and he works from home though is not around atm so I might not be able to post replies as regulary as I would like so please bear with me.

History is that dh and I have been together for around 13 years since I was in my early 20s. MIL always disapproved of me and felt suspicious of why I hooked up with her son because I am not from their (European) country even though I spoke the language reasonably well (having learnt it at school) and had visted there a few times prior to meeting dh. I was younger than dh/ educated to postgrad level/ had already bought my first flat at the time/ not really interested in her obsession with the Christian faith etc. whereas dh was a bit of a dreamer/ living at home with mum/ never earned more than min wage/ not academic etc. So basically very different backgrounds which meant that I was ok with making allowances for their odd attitude towards me.

Dh came to live with me at my home in the UK after we married and things were rocky for a few years (mainly due to his family interfering in every aspect of our lives from a distance and dh being too spineless to stand up to them also due to the fact that I was quite young and this was the first proper relationship either of us had been in) - his aunt even went so far as to ask him what contraception I was using. He left a few times and moved back with his mum found work back home etc but before dc1 was born moved back, found interesting work to do in the UK, showed commitment for the first time ever and we sorted out our differences and went on to have dc2 etc. and felt generally happy and positive.

My mil did occasionally stir things up from a distance via phonecalls to dh but the distance meant that she could not visit v often to do this face to face. She has been trying to persuade dh to bring only the dcs to see her abroad ever since dc1 was 2 weeks old and fully bf but dh basically fudged the issue.

She was invited to visit a few weeks ago and suddenly announced that she was bringing her other son with her who was always v critical of me and whom I would not have invited. He has never even sent the dcs birthday cards or ecards despite being v well-off with few commitments and a bimbo girlfriend whom he showers with useless expensive gifts of the knickers-perfume-chocolates variety all the time. However, in the interests of maintaining harmony and not wishing to deny the dcs the chance to know their uncle I agreed that they could both stay over.

DH and I felt that overall, things went well. I played the polite and interested DIL making teas, engaging in mind-numbing chit chat in their language (despite not wanting to as we practice one-parent-one-language). I talked to dcs in English as that is usual for us, they do not know DHs mother tongue. She understands next to no English.

On the first day they arrived, dh woke up late and needed to rush to meet their flight so we agreed to meet at a certain restaurant in London and I agreed to bring the dcs there at an agreed time, at my own expense. We got soaked in a downpour as our umbrella got jammed (not their fault I know but I did not have the option of returning home obv) and when we got there, we waited ages in our wet clothes but they did not show up so after an hour, we ate I took the dcs home in the dark. DHs mobile had been switched off and I would not have known their numbers as I dont really have much to do with them. I later found out that their flight had been delayed and mil cooly implied that we should have waited even longer. By the time they turned up at our house it was almost bedtime the dcs were pretty hyper after a full-on day and dcs started chucking his mecanno towards mil whist laughing and making his usual aeroplane noises. dh went onto the computer (in the other room as he had to print things for their posh restaurant reservation later that evening) and did not come out for an hour as he was playing soduku (sp?) and is generally unsociable. The discipling was left to me even though DH knows that I do not feel comfortable around them. I explaned to ds2 in English not to do that and showed him the right way to play using the usual positive parenting techniques. I went off to cook dcs supper as it was already too late. I was not in the room with them at the time to give them space to get to know the Dcs (they barely know them) . Obviously, once the time came to serve their dinner, I did try to divert their attention to get them to eat (they are fussy eaters who usually eat at around 4.30 rather than 6 and are def not used to evening visitors).

We traipsed around town with them for four days catering to their every whim and they never implied they were unhappy about anything.

Last week, MIL used DHs work email address (never usually does as we have a family address) to send this to him. He tried to keep it from me but I fell upon it on dc2s birthday. In translation:

Hi

I got back OK but I feel heavy hearted wrt your family situation. I actually needed several days to get my thoughts together to write this.

I know that you personally did everything that you possibly could to make sure that we had a good time.

DS presented himself well and seemed ready to learn a load of things but his mother seemed jealous of our presence and tried to butt in every time he wanted to interact with us - that is definitely the reason why he gets told off a lot at school. He needs to spend more time with other children of his age and you need to set that up as soon as possible. You both need to go out and start meeting other parents more and if Figcake can manage it, she should let him express himself and not anticipate every situation. I think that a short break (DH and DS) to visit FIL at Christmas will do him good

You all need to get out of the house more and meet people. I hope Figcake sees through her idea of taking up an activity - even though it wont be easy for her- in order to see how her current life has cut her off from reality.

She should try not to put on any more weight as it is not good for the heart and increases the risk of other cardiac conditions.

You need to finish all the works on your house as soon as possible and liquidate evrything that is no longer useful to DCs.

As always, we think you personally (i.e DH) are a great parent.

With love to you (i.e only dh). Mum

You are being completely disrespected by your H - AWFUL
I hope you find answers soon and he needs to stand up to his mother once and for all

Your hubby really needs to learn to stand up for you. Writing that letter is a great idea by the way.

I've got an Eastern European MIL and I can just imagine her saying things like this down the phone, again, it's a very direct culture in which the mother expressing her forthright opinions on every aspect of your choices, from your parenting to your weight is pretty normal. However, it's also pretty normal for people to reply in forthright terms (hence the rather loud conversations).

I think it is a shame that all this was written down. If she'd gone on a bit on the phone, it would have just gone away after that phone call, now it's an indelible reminder of how she is (and it says so much about her, not you).

Everything everyone says about your DH is true, unfortunatly, he has to be your defender. I know I'm not the ideal daughter in law for my MIL, and my DH can be personally quite critical of me, however, to his parents, we present a united front. WE are the family unit, and they have to be nice to be in it. This curbs their worst excesses. You have my sympathy.

I'm not sure it's worth a massive row that may linger for years. Don't go at Xmas if you don't want to, let them all go together and put your feet up. Let her come in a year or two, but only on your terms. I don't think you should cut her off completely, she didn't say anything unforgiveable, just mild criticisms really that, as I say, if said in a phone call, would be part of a discussion (which hopefully your husband would have disagreed with) and then they would have been gone. I don't think you need to make her like you, but you do need her to be respectful and not critical to you or to do that through your husband, and it's up to him to make that clear to her.

Curious, your DH wont tell you what he and MIL talk about, do you think he extends the same courtesy to your private conversations with him?

oh dear, your first post was just soooo long I sort of pooped out around "came home before DC1 was born" and lost the will to live.

Agree - telling you things like the house comment - it's almost as if he likes the drama of winding you up.

I agree with the others - the problem isn't your MIL, she lives in another country, your DH is a spineless moron. Stop wasting energy on hating your MIL and tell your DH to support you or fuck off.

Hi thanks for your advice. I know that my posts are long but I felt the context was relevant. I spoke to my mum today and she told me that the animated conversation that I heard last night was infact my DH having a go at my father and trying to get him to twist my arm to get me to agree to visiting FIL at Christmas.

I am really disappointed as I was really hoping that he had stood up to MIL on my behalf. My father said that DH told him that MIL is really nice and that I am lazy. I am really fuming as I am anything but. Since DS1 was born, I have done every nightshift, every feed, every nappy, read every book at home, I wash all the clothes including his (he has never actually operated our washing machine before). I also cook 95% of all the meals, plan all the days out. I do practically all the school runs and local trips (park, library, running errands, shopping) , sort out all the bills & school problems (my DS1 has some LDs).

DH used to go out to work early and was never there for the first few years as he rarely took time off. His home-based work coincided with the recession so in real terms he has had very little to do and has earned next to nothing. During 'dry periods' (which is pretty much all the time at the moment) he typically wakes up at around 2pm having watched several DVDs through most of the night. Even the person whom he supposedly reports to is pretty taken aback by it and even frustrated when there is something that needs doing.

My writing of this post was just interrupted by my MIL who called me in order to interrogate me re my change of travel plans. I said I did not want to speak to her as she was pretty low down in my list of priorities. She started spouting rubbish about how she doesn't give a toss and that my character is really detrimental to the welfare of my children. She doesn't know them, understand them, understand our culture or 'get me' at any level and I am no longer sure whether DH fares much better. I hung up when she started shouting over me, she called back but it went onto answerphone.

Oh, I meant to thank fedup for her translation. If you think it needs correcting though MIL will use that as ammunition so I might start a thread asking French speakers to make sure it is all OK. Sounds great through!

So, let's get this straight, your husband earns almost nothing, stays in bed til mid-afternoon and watches DVDs at night, whilst you do all the childcare and household tasks, then calls you lazy and doesn't stand up for you when his lovely mother slags you off.

Ok, as others have said, you have problems way beyond an email from your MIL. Given what your husband appears to say about you to your own father , your issue is with him. He's clearly moaning to his mother about you first, and she's replying in the same vein. Given you don't have his support, I really don't know where you go from here.

Why are you with your DH? Seriously, he does nothing, and will not put you and the kids ahead of his mother.
I'd kick that useless lump of wood into touch ASAP.

this just gets worse and worse wrt to your DH. in particular that he regards conversations with his family as "private". except for the choice insults he divulges to wind you up. makes me wonder if rather than being spineless he is deliberately trying to play you and MIL off against each other...

OK, your DH is behaving like an ARSE! I'm sorry, but he is, and it's not fair. You need him to stand up for you - you and the kids are his immediate family and you should absolutely be his priority.

Personally, I think I would be telling him t oeither support me or go home to mum. I can appreciate that if he has bene raised to be respectful of his family etc then standing up to his family would be difficult - it was for my DH - however he HAS to do it. If his family are anything like my DHs' (sounds like they are), then your opinion, you being upset, won't mean anything to them.

The only thing that brought my FIL out of it was repeated and extremely firm words/letters/emails from DH stating that his behaviour was completely inappropriate, that he was an adult making his own decisions, and that he would not tolerate him being disrespectful of me. It was HARD, really hard, for him to do this. He'd never answered back to his parents. But, he knew that if he didn't they'd drive a wedge between us and that he would lose me.

I think you have been incredibly tolerant thus far, especially in the light of your last post where you say he's not bringing in any money either. He's treating you really poorly, and to tell your father that you are lazy is just blatantly out of line. You're a family unit - you should be facing the world together, and he's letting you down.

And in the light of your more recent post, I think you should see that email as part of an ongoing conversation where he's clearly said there are problems with your marriage or you. Given this, her response is actually quite measured (whilst supportive to her son).

I'm a bit at your last post OP. Let's see if I got this straight:

You own the house - you bought it before you met DH

You earn most of the money at the moment in a professional role - he isn't earning much and is in danger of losing this current source of income because he doesn't make himself available when his boss needs him.

You do ALL the housework and childcare - shopping, cleaning, cooking, laundry - and he has NEVER used the washing machine.

You are expected to run round after his family and entertain them when they come to visit, while he plays SuDoku on the computer.

His family are rude to you and about you and he lets them get away with it.

He calls your father with complaints about your behaviour and asks them to twist your arm to get you to do something you don't want to do.

Sorry to be blunt OP, but this is not a marriage, and not family life.

And your biggest problem is not your MIL......

My immediate thought was "is she Greek"?!

I have experience of friends with Greek and Eastern European in laws and the MIL rules the roost for the entire family. there is a supreme pecking order there where the son's wife is the lowest of the low. This culture is so ingrained that she couldn't change to save her life and she will think she is perfectly reasonable, it is also expected that women do all the work and the men sit around feeling entitled to things.

This won't change and all you can do is hope the distance they are from you means she won't be as bad as if you were down the road.

Also, your DH has been brought up to see women as servants yet he gets to be in charge and get all the praise. I loathe cultures like that and I'm very sorry you are in that situation, however, you may be able to get your DH to change. It is a good job you are not living in his country or you'd have even more of a dog's life than you do now.

I also suspect your MIL feels your children are hers via the right of her son, so if you were in her country she would try to get them away from you. If she drives a wedge between you and DH and you ever split his family will claim your children I suspect. Stay in the UK at all costs!

Your DH told his dad you were lazy?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

POT...KETTLE...BLACK

And not true by what you say.

Your situation sounds like a nightmare, and your DH is starting to sound increasingly unfair. It sounds to me as if you need to have a long hard talk about the way he sees you and your contribution. I would be spitting tacks if my DH thought I was lazy in those circumstances!

As someone who is also in a cross-cultural marriage, I am sure the lack of cultural understanding is contributing to some of the issues with your MIL (though she still sounds toxic). For example, it will probably be normal in her culture to be far more direct and openly critical.

I think you should work out what kind of letter you want to write and post it on the Living overseas section and ask for help with a translation. I speak very fluent French and would be happy to help (and can check the French with DH).

Depending on the outcome you want (ie whether you want to cease all contact or to try to come to a workable compromise), in the letter I would be inclined to blame as much as you can on cultural misunderstandings.

Just a couple of other points - as regards OPOL (which we do too), I don't think you should see it as a problem to speak to your ILs in French in front of the DCs, as it is only polite. I would still talk to DCs in English in front of them, but be prepared to explain/translate as necessary.

They will probably think 4.30pm supper is extremely early (and probably bedtime as well) and hence probably thought you were being deliberately obstructive. That is a genuinely cultural issue.

I am a bit confused as to FIL's role in all this (someone said they were divorced?), but I think you are quite within your rights to demand that he be party to the exchange.

Not sure what to say about your visit, but for me it would depend on discussions with your DH and him being willing to send a strongly worded message to his mother (or at least to endorse yours).

Why are you married to that loser?

I know you are all right about DH. I do not actually love him. Even from the start, it was rocky which is why his family persuaded him to leave our new marriage and move back so many times - I lost faith in him pretty early on as this was at odds with the stable, middle-class upbringing which I had benefitted from.

I have told him that and persuaded that he leave on several occasions but he has never reacted as I would have hoped. I used to think it was of benefit to the children that we stay together and on a day to day basis it still feels that way a lot of the time but then the DCs tell me they "hate" him and I begin to think that they are right, he is a terrible role model really, it is too unhealthy.

Typical day Dcs and I wake up at 7, DCs go to school,I do everything I need plus use computer, DCs come home at 3, DH would have just woken up at this point and would take over the computer immediately, DCs do homework/play etc almost exclusively with only my involvement, DCs go to bed, I get my computer time again while DH watches TV, DVDs, chats online.

It just feels so abnormal and at odds with my own upbringing.

But he won't go and realistically, I am going to have to 'live it out' until they leave home. If pressed, he says that he is here for his DCs not for me. There is no way of getting rid of him, no guarantee that things would improve.

figcake

That's one of the saddest posts I've ever read on Mumsnet. It's not for me to tell you what to do, but you DO have choices. You don't have to live with this.

If nothing else, go and have an initial chat with a solicitor so that you at least know what the process of getting a divorce involves and what your rights are to property, etc. Then you can at least make a proper decision about what to do, rather than 'living it out'.

Seriously, this is no way to live. For you or your children.

Slightly off topic but I wonder about the one parent one language issue. You say DC do not understand your MIL. If they don't understand their father either as he spends so little time talking with them then that must surely contribute to the distance between them? Sounds like a vicious circle in the making to me. (not disagreeing with OPOL which has everything going for it in normal circumstances)

I have used fedups post and added a bit of rudeness (not sure if too rude?). Weta could you check it for me before I send it as I may not have computer later and don't want MIL to continue bombarding me with phonecalls? Thanks

J'ai vu le mail que vous avez envoyé et j'ai refleché sur le contenus.

Je suis consideré comme un parent excellent par tous les gens important dans la vie, et pendant que chaque mère fait les choses dans une manière differente, à mon avis, il est vraiment impolis de critiquer quelqu'un comme ca, especialement à un mari. Malheureusement, tes perceptions sont surtout tes delusions - c'est possibles qu'ils indiquent une manque de comprehension de notre (DC et moi) culture et langue et un mauvais jugement de caractère. C'est-a-dire, DS n'a pas besoin des personnes toxiques dans sa vie.

Egalement, ce n'est pas gentille de parler comme ca du poids ou vie sociale d'une personne. Si vous voulez continuer à me critiquer, n'hesitez pas a m'écrire directement. Surement, vous appreciez que c'est vraiement difficile pour votre fils - vous le mettez dans une position très difficle. S'il vous plait, il faut pas demander qu'il fait un choix entre nous.

Nooo that is no life fig. For any of you.

I know it will be hard but you need to screw up whatever courage you have and send your dcs to stay with your mum and get your dad over to help MOVE HIM OUT OF YOUR HOUSE.

You will find after a lot of aggro from him and his family -m which you needn't respond to - that life for you all will be fantastic on many levels.