AIBU to think that some parents loose sight of what is acceptable behaviour?

[caspered]

Just been to Pizzahut for what should have been an afternoon treat but spoiled by other parents lack of control of their kids. My two DDs (3 and 6) are not perfect, but we have just been confronted in Pizzahut by one child, about 5 having a total meltdown, which happens I know we have all been there, BUT the parents let this meltdown go in in full volume for 40 minutes!!! I have ignored my child when a tantrum has been in full play, but not in a restaurant where other people (AND PARENTS) are trying to relax or at least eat in some kind of peace. Its not as if there was only one adult, but there was four of them, after 30 minutes the people at the next table just left!! Then to add insult to injury, the next table along with a 'toddler' got out their potty and put it under the table and put their daughter on it in full view of everyone!! I know that potty training can be difficult but Pizzahut have toilets and large ones big enough for someone to sit on a potty in. Quite honestly after this afternoon I can understand why people who have no children sometimes quite frankly look on some parents as some kind of alien species dragged up through the dark ages!! OK feel a bit better now I got that off my chest

Well, I agree with you all. The standards of behaviour in public have de-generated since I was a child. In many high street situations staff do not have the training to interact on more than a very basic level with customers. More and more people do not know how to spell or use their own language correctly... I hear this on the radio all the time and I cringe at the lack of awareness not to mention the mistakes.. plural and singular intermingled and syntax mangled .... ooooooh this makes my toes curl.

Why am I a bit sceptical? Because I've been Starbucks (and Neros and a zillion independent cafes - I'm a coffee addict) with my three children, including my flapping, yapping, twirling autistic son, and have never had anyone be unreasonably grumpy with us. And what's more, if my child was doing nothing wrong, and not getting in anyone's way or disturbing them, I would not pointlessly martyr myself by leaving to drink my coffee in the rain. If you chose to do that, you have to take responsibility for your choice.

I go to cafe rouge a lot too, and the staff are lovely to us, and in return I try to make sure the kids behave as well as they can. For my son, that's often very, very hard, so if he loses it a bit, despite being entertained with free crayons and colouring and word-searches (and the stuff we bring with us) one of us will take him out for a while to calm down. Bookshops these days are amazing. My children are allowed to lie on sofas and read the stock for hours, and nobody ever says a word. That would never have happened when I was young.

Today my children went to the Natural History Museum with their grandparents. They had a brilliant time with loads of free activities provided for children. I got a 'postcard' of a bug emailed to me at home from my son

Totally agree with you ColdComfortfarm - its give and take isn't it? If you go somewhere and get good service (ie, like we did yesterday in Cafe-Rouge) then you really make an effort to encourage your little ones to behave as best they can - and if they don't then you take them for a wander. And yes, bookshops are fab these days - we often go to waterstones and sit in the kids area without actually buying any books (which seems to be perfectly acceptable)

If Sakura is in London, I'm not surprised that she has encountered aggravation re. children per se. The place is impossibly overcrowded, and populated by a combination of awful yummy-mummy types who haven't got a clue, along with families from all over the world who, in general, come from cultures which are child-accepting and child-friendly because the children don't even think about brattish behaviour. My twin daughters, both social workers in the capital, have to deal with serious issues from both groups. The Yummies crack under the strain of inability to control their children who call the shots, and people new to this country can be forgiven for wondering why the whole attitude towards children is the opposite of their experience, thus their culturally-learned methods of child-rearing are interpreted as way over the top. Good luck to Diane Abbott who was prepared to publicly admit that despite her socialist alliegances, she would be sending her son to private school in order that he adhere to sensible standards, as opposed to what he risked as a black boy at school in London.

Haven't read the thread. Suspect it got heated.

May I just say OP that I totally agree with you. Some parents have such a huge sense of entitlement it makes me cringe. If children behave badly and make things uncomfortable for other (reasonable) people that makes lifes harder for other parents.

Yes there are child-hostile wankers out there, but IME many people are prepared to make reasonable allowances. Sadly some parents take unreasonable liberties.

I can confirm that avoiding Pizza Hut will not keep you safe from eating in a lavatory -- I saw a toddler merrily excreting on a potty in the middle of John Lewis café. This thread reassures me that I am not woefully old fashioned to have found it a bit much.

Heartsease - that's depressing, disgusting but sadly, not surprising. I'm sure it would be illegal in many so-called 'developing countries' due to potential health hazards - but we're so far superior to them - aren't we?!

My DS is 8 now. I've never felt unwelcome in a cafe or restaurant, far from it.

I have travelled a good deal with DS and have never encountered any negativity.

OP, YANBU. Absolutely disgusting behaviour! Luckily I have never seen or heard anything like this either ( I include a child having a 40 minute tantrum.)

Reading this thread makes me feel as though I am living in a different country.

All these chain restaurants tend to be open to children visiting but there are many more interesting, independent restaurants that are hostile to family dining. I just don't believe it is that awful for people without children mainly because there is so much more choice available to them.

People have always had to function alongside children, travel on trains with them, have a drink near them, visit museums where they may be present because children are actually people! I grew up in the 80's and did all of these things. People aren't expected to tolerate children in every aspect of their life anymore than they used to.

Equally, workplace practices do not favour mothers, often they just avoid employing them all together to avoid having to offer any special provisions...what's the point if you can get a childless person who won't have family limitations put upon them even if they are the more talented/qualified candidate! I have my own experience of this treatment as does my sil and sister who received pay offs from city banks because they were no longer flexible enough once they had become mothers! My own experience was in very, very centraL government so these attitudes exist right across the various sectors!

Ultimately I just don't buy into the idea that childless people are sidelined for the happiness of mothers! Or that these selfish, clueless parents exist on mass 'in this day and age'. If you witness this kind of parenting and then believe this reflects most parents' attitudes and hence stay away from children with the misguided belief that they are always going to act up, you must be pretty ignorant and pretty self centred!

I don't know, I'm not sure how child friendly Britain is really. I haven't had too many problems (but then why would I, my children are angelic obviously...)

However I do feel that there is a massive difference between 'having child friendly facilities' and 'being child friendly'. You can have all the soft play, kiddy menus and colouring and babychange tables in the world but it means bugger all if the staff clearly hate kids and view them as an inconvenience. Child friendly is an attitude, it's not just about facilities. Some places are just paying lip service IMO.

And wrt indulgence, yes I agree that this generation is more indulged than any before. This is a very big part of the Problem IMHO, whatever the Problem actually is.

Anyway, must stop waffling as I'm off to look up the definition of the word inimical as I have seen it so many times on this thread :o

Want to try being childless in this society? Want to try having your ability to take holidays along with your partner completely blocked because you're a teacher and haven't got flexibility with holidays - yet your husband's company refuses to accept this as a way of you being allowed to book leave during school holiday time because you're not a parent? Want to sit and be bugged and begged and cajoled and even ordered into working all the grotty shifts (previous life to education), the evening stuff, the residentials because you can't possibly have any committments justifying you not being chained to the job (no parents to care for, no husbands, no external obligations at all).

Want to talk about being judged? Want to read article after article marking you out as a hedonistic thrillseeker who pulls endless Monday sickies because you've got a hangover, who only cares about number 1, who is incapable of altruism or caring for anyone - purely because of what has/hasn't come out of your vagina. Want to even have your professional ability to do you job condemned and judged - because you haven't given (live) birth?

Want to talk about how the local hospital maternity and ante-natal areas are in brand new inviting shiny purpose built blocks, yet the EPU where you go if you might NOT be having a happy ending is in the darkest, dingiest part of the hospital, with paint peeling off the walls - hidden away like the dirty little secret you are.

Want to talk about how you're forced to justify your existence on this website - as if you're allowed in the nice little miscarriage and conception boards, oh and we'll have your help in the primary ed board as well - but don't you dare cross the threshold anywhere else or we'll demand to know what you're doing out of secure confinement.

Want to know what it's like to constantly, inecssantly be judged detrimentally because of your reproductive status, to hide miscarriages and infertility in shame because that's what society expects - to smile sweetly at pregnancy and birth announcements, to hide away the thought of YOUR children who didn't make it to see the sun... and yet still be viewed from the outside as some evil childless witch, to be asked to justify your childlessness, your reproductive situation, whether you're using contraception or not - to every single busybody out there?

Oh you can add in employees who are reluctant to employ women of childbearing age because they're assuming you're going to get pregnant and go off on maternity leave - yeah right lol. So you're doubly-penalized on that one.

And if a mummy had posted the equivalent of this rant - you'd all be patting her on the head that her opinion is valid, but because it's a childless woman - I guarantee you within 5 posts someone will tell me to naff orf if I'm childless (sorry but there are other forums here aimed at those TRYING but not parents... I'm not going to hide away solely in there as a dirty little secret) and make out I'm someone filled with rage and a rabid child-hating cow because they haven't actually read anything I've written. We're just expected to keep quiet and get on with it - no opinions, no feelings - just the wheels that keep things going around those shiny things that matter.

Yeah it's awesome not having any kids. You don't know the half of it Goldenbear.

:(

I don't really know what to say to that but didn't want to read and run.

emptyshell, I 100% agree with what you've posted. Obviously i have kids myself, but my little sister and 2 brothers (all younger than me) don't - the attitude my sister gets for her (in her case, happily childless) state vs. my brothers is unbelievable.

relatives wanting to know when she's going to "give" her grandparents her first grandchild, etc etc - my brothers face no such intrusive questions (and heart breaking ones if she was, like you, actually wanting them!).

i have no idea if my brothers see themeselves with a large family, small family or no family offspring - no one has ever badgered them to death in front of me! What does that tell you, eh!

Ouch.
All valid points in another context, I guess.

Don't know about the shiny new maternity wards though. The place I gave birth was like something out of cold war Bulgaria.

I think maybe from your perspective emptyshell all of the discussion about how hard it is(or isn't) for mothers in cafes etc will seem clueless and self obsessed.

It is possible that you are (understandably) traumatised from yr experiences and this is colouring your views somewhat.

I would never tell anyone they have no right to comment because they are not a mother. Children and the raising of them is a concern for society at large, not just parents, and as most of my friends are so far childless I get a lot of the perspective from the other side too.

No I know the other half of it and I only detailed a small amonut of those experiences with relevance to previous comments.

This is not a personal attack on you emptyshell, besides which I obviously have experienced life before having children so I do know what life has to offer without children!

emptyshell,
By your reasoning, the fact that childless women suffer suddenly means that mothers don't suffer. It's an illogical and irrelevant argument.

Mothers are treated with contempt by the media (selfish career women/dull, frumpy housewives/ yummy mummies/ benefits single mother scroungers who should be sterilised)

They are treated with disrespect by society

CHildless women have their own problems, there's no doubt about that. But trying to say that those problems somehow cancel out the real issues that mothers face is irrelevant to this discussion and TBH, you are attacking the wrong people by attacking mothers. You should attack the society i.e the media, that has created this bizzare sideshow of reverring celebrity, wealthy mothers and giving the impression that the only route to meaning in a woman's life is through her children.

Oh and I also find it strange that you think that I don't know what it's like to be a woman without children. I do. I lived until I was 25 as a childless woman and since having children I have had my eyes opened to the media contempt and belittling of mothers. You only have to see how the media takes the piss out of mumsnet. I mean, really, we all know the reason mumsnet is not taken seriously is because it's run by mothers.
Biscuitgate was prime example. It was a joke and yet that's what the media picked up on, as though mothers have nothing in their silly little heads except biscuits to talk about. In reality the prime ministers and politicians have had real grillings on here, but nobody mentions that do they...

ease up on hyperbole of women globally sterotyped by media.socialsciencetastic sweeping conspiracy theories

whp says MN isnt taken seriusly?id say an exPM, current PM and various schlebs all jostling to participate is indicative of a sizable presence

comments I've seen here and there in various sources on the net. Just don't think other "groups" would be sneered at in quite the same way

if we are getting down to it the worst attacking coments ive seen on mn are women to other women

comments about
working/not working
feeding
benefits
etc

plenty women demonising other women on mn

empty shell although I acknowledge your situation and obvious distress it does not negate the points made on this thread...

I don't recognise the england sakura is trying to paint. DCs now teen have been bought up very close to london. We have encountered the odd individual child hater, but never a restaurant/cafe full. I suspect it depends on the parenting of the child, rather than the child itself that gets the tuts.

sakura points not representative of scotland either.family life isnt such a dystopian grind.it really isnt