AIBU to think that some parents loose sight of what is acceptable behaviour?

[caspered]

Just been to Pizzahut for what should have been an afternoon treat but spoiled by other parents lack of control of their kids. My two DDs (3 and 6) are not perfect, but we have just been confronted in Pizzahut by one child, about 5 having a total meltdown, which happens I know we have all been there, BUT the parents let this meltdown go in in full volume for 40 minutes!!! I have ignored my child when a tantrum has been in full play, but not in a restaurant where other people (AND PARENTS) are trying to relax or at least eat in some kind of peace. Its not as if there was only one adult, but there was four of them, after 30 minutes the people at the next table just left!! Then to add insult to injury, the next table along with a 'toddler' got out their potty and put it under the table and put their daughter on it in full view of everyone!! I know that potty training can be difficult but Pizzahut have toilets and large ones big enough for someone to sit on a potty in. Quite honestly after this afternoon I can understand why people who have no children sometimes quite frankly look on some parents as some kind of alien species dragged up through the dark ages!! OK feel a bit better now I got that off my chest

I agree sukura-and they certainly don't want to go shopping!
It is sad that people feel that they can't say anything to children -even in a friendly way. People put down the British as child haters and quote how friendly they are in southern European countries, but it is very unfair. Where people are child friendly it is because parents make sure that the DCs don't upset others and they can interact. People expect their DC to be able to get down and wander around a restaurant, but if someone were to pick up the DC and play a game with them or offer them a biscuit there would be hell to pay! People know this and so don't. Parents want people to love their DC but only under their conditions and they can't have that sort of control outside their own home.
Mine have always been fine in restaurants-but that is because we talk to them-we don't have adult conversations and ignore them.

I really hate the fact that people often assume all toddlers are little nightmares just because of a few incidents like this :(

Was in Spain last week and the flight there was totally ruined by noise and obnoxious behaviour. From grown men FGS, being loud and teasing the male air steward

Didn't hear a peep out of any kids apart from a few tears due to ear popping. In fact on the return flight one girl was wandering around asking people what they were doing, because she was conducting a survey :o I thought that was adorable but I'm sure some grumpus thought it was annoying.

Dear Hairytriangle. You should thank God you are not dyslexic like some of us. Being shot down in flames by the like of you is no help what so ever. Get a life and just worry about your own grammer. Then it won't irritate you as you are perfect{

Gosh, what country do you live in Sakura? I surely cannot be England, you know the England where the new cafe that's opened up near me has a play area with blackboard and toys and a bloody annoying stairgate on the way to the loo? The one where every single museum and gallery lays on special trails and activities for children, where giant pushchairs fill all available space in cafes and restaurants, where there are childrens menus everywhere, babychange facilities all over the place, and you feel utterly outraged that people don't want to hear a child screaming and tantrumming while they drink a coffee. My childless friends, who are fantastic with my children, admit that they feel that society completely sidelines childless women in particular, and that they find the behaviour of many children really shockingly bad in public places.

well yes, piscesmoon, it works both ways. there is a breakdown of trust in society (excacerbated by the media). I've found that men who want to help me be hesitant to pick up my (adorable, of course) DS because they think I'll think there's something wrong with them or that they're paedos

sakura I travel a lot for our International School status, and have a house in Brittany where I spend most of my holidays. The more I travel, the more sorry I am for parents in this country, and hope that my DCs will either move overseas if they have children, or that the wheel will turn and a more positive attitude develops towards babies & children in the UK. We are getting it wrong here, and have a vicious circle in which children of all ages sense the hostility towards them and behave accordingly. I discuss this frequently when teaching Citizenship or in formtime, the students of non-British heritage invariably compare conditions here unfavourably with their countries of origin. At least the ones I deal with are old enough to analyse the problem and its causes, though, little ones are not. If we don't address this problem, we shouldn't be surprised when feral children end up attacking and picking on weaker members of society, as a worst-case scenario. I have to warn schools planning to visit us about attitudes towards young people in the UK so they are ready - how sad. Those who are lucky enough to visit our partner schools overseas always return happy and surprised about how welcome they were everywhere. For this reason I agree with GenevieveHawking's sentiment that the full force of disapproval should be shown to parents who are provocational enough to do something as unnecessary and disgusting as to produce a potty in a restaurant. We must stop the few ruining the perception of children when the vast majority of parents are mortified if their children cause problems in public.

the starbucks incident was in London CCF.

I think it is a bit of a prob. Just been to a baby show and a pg woman was with her 4 yrs old(i guess) and we were at the same stall when he stood on my foot before falling heavily into my also huge belly. Nowe i am not precious as this is my 5th but i would have liked some acknowledgement if not a cheery apology.
The potty thing is gross but i had ameal ruined in pizza hut the other week when the elderly grandma sat next to us had areally vile chesty cough and coughed all the way through the meal despite taking numerous spoonfulls of cough mixture. She was spitting into a tissue i cannot tell you how vle it was.

I have a bag FULL of tiny packets of crayons given away in restaurants! None of this existed when I was a child. We WERE expected to fit in. Now it's totally different.

the library incident (when I got the third degree about using the public toilet) was also London

Nobody chucked you out of Starbucks though did they? You left because your child was behaving badly, and I would do the same. It's good to model courtesy and consideration to your children, and to teach them that if you scream and yell, you will have to leave. Starbucks is hardly child unfriendly. It's normally packed with mothers and children. It gives away blooming babycinos!

and the library incident has nothing to do with your being a mother, has it?

FreudianSlimmery Sun 07-Nov-10 17:38:37
"I thought that was adorable"

so anyone who doesn't agree is a "grumpus" thats very tolerent of you.

I think it's ironic and wrong that a society has been designed in such a way that it's normal for a mother and child to be chucked on the street in the rain so that other people without children can relax. DD was disruptive, which is why I left, but she may have calmed down. There was no way I was going to weather all the tutting and frowns flying in my direction.

As for the library incident, I'm confused as to why they wouldn't automatically allow a mother with a young child and baby to use the toilet without giving her the third degree. To me it implies a lack of respect.

I've often been struck by how well behaved children are when I've been on holiday in Europe. Kids up late but not stroppy due to tiredness, just being well behaved. And I've noticed that all but the most touristy restaurants don't have Children's menus - holidaying Brits often see that as non-child-friendly but it's quite the opposite IMO - it shows that children are seen as PEOPLE and not just separate species who are only allowed to eat chicken nuggets chips and beans.

Btw those of you very interested in the way society's attitude to children is changing, I enjoyed reading toxic childhood by sue palmer.

I would not claim that children in other countries always behave impeccably. They are still children and have tantrums, get bored, whine etc. However, I have not seen any parents over here who think it's acceptable and everybody else should just deal with it, like the family in OP. I have not seen any parents here who think it's ok to go to toilet under the table either. And that is the reason why children are welcome - or how would the logic work otherwise, that parents won't make their kids go to toilet under the table or change the diapers right there because other people in the restaurant are more child-friendly?

By the way, it is also totally normal to take dogs to restaurants here. We take our two to our favourite restaurant all the time and as they behave, they are welcome. But if they would bark for 40 minutes, run around, drool and eat from other people's plates while we just watched and did nothing, I'm sure the owner would soon ask us to leave them at home. Maybe even put a "no dogs" sign up. Would that mean that he suddenly started hating dogs and dog-owners or were just the misbehaving ones an issue?

No it's not fair that all parents are punished because of some bad apples. But if, for example, every time when you go out, someone decides to change a diaper on the dining table, you will become somewhat worried every time you see another baby.

I think that you need to start by being friendly to strangers-I have lost count of the numbers of threads on here that start -'AIBU not to want dirty strangers touching my baby'-when you read it it is nothing to do with tramps-very often just an elderly lady wanting to stroke a leg! I remember someone being with an elderly Greek lady who bent forward to look at a baby in the pram and the mother said sharply 'don't touch!', the poor woman was upset and confused, it wouldn't have happened in Greece.
I have been in Spain where waiters have run their hands through DSs hair (it stuck straight up when he was small) -people who want more friendliness wouldn't like it-there is strictly no touching!
Until you get past the 'my child' and 'you can't say anything to my child'-there will be a problem. Say 'it takes a village to raise a child' and some posters will come on and say 'utter rubbish!' (I think that ideally it does take a village).

Have to say I do agree with Sakura on the general lack of child friendly facilities in cafes and restaurants. Some are excellent, like John Lewis. But have been in some places which have no baby changing facilities. Have avoided them in the future. But feel that child friendly facilities ie babychanging and highchairs should be legally mandatory for all eating places as disabled access is [or should be?].

Er, Sakura, NOBODY chucked you! You chucked yourself. You cannot blame 'society' for your own decision here. I think you did the right thing. You showed consideration for others. It is absolutely horrible to listen to a kid shrieking and wailing. The fact that the loo at the library was locked indicates that EVERYBODY gets challenged in some way when they want to go to the loo. Maybe it's the staff loo and so they let you use it as a privilege that they would not have afforded to other library users. I don't see the lack of 'respect' here. I also don't think we deserve extra 'respect' for being mothers. I don't think I am any better or more worthy than my friends who do not have children. I really dislike this kind of thinking.

I have rarely seen baby change facilities or high chairs in French restaurants actually. I think they are incredibly common in England.

There are also hardly any playgrounds in places I've been on holiday. And they don't rival the ones in London parks. I am overwhelmed by the sheer number of activities available to my children at weekends. Most of them are free.

CCF,
strong signals being sent in my direction that I was not welcome is akin to being chucked out. ONly those with the thickest of skins would have stayed.
It's nothing to do with being more "worthy". it's to do with an acknowledgment of the difficulties that come with child-rearing. If I hadn't had my children with me I would not have needed to use their toilet so urgently. If I was out and about on my own none of these issues and problems would have arisen.
I can't stand the line of thinking that being with children is just the same as being without children.

LOL BBJ kind if misinterpreting my words there, what I meant was that this girl was being reay polite, but there are some people (I've met plenty of them) who just hate kids even when they are being well behaved and lovely. Those people IMHO deserve the name Grumpus :o

Totally agree about other cultures being more ok with touch etc, waiters etc were utterly besotted with my 2 last week, ruffling hair etc, I thought it was lovely, refreshing change from England tbh.

piscesmoon I made a poster of 'it takes a village to raise a child' and display it in the Dining Room of my school as one of our International School reflection points. It's interesting to see how differently it's interpreted by children of various nationalities ... sadly :( The reactions range from over-obsession from the WB about paedos/weirdos etc., to full comprehension from students from Eastern European and African backgrounds who would find anything else bizarre. You can guess which groups exhibit better behaviour in general !

you're almost on the line of thinking there that children are a "lifestyle choice".
This is a concept that has been made up to give society a get-out clause when it comes to supporting mothers and children, especially by certain right-wing governments.