AIBU to think that some parents loose sight of what is acceptable behaviour?

[caspered]

Just been to Pizzahut for what should have been an afternoon treat but spoiled by other parents lack of control of their kids. My two DDs (3 and 6) are not perfect, but we have just been confronted in Pizzahut by one child, about 5 having a total meltdown, which happens I know we have all been there, BUT the parents let this meltdown go in in full volume for 40 minutes!!! I have ignored my child when a tantrum has been in full play, but not in a restaurant where other people (AND PARENTS) are trying to relax or at least eat in some kind of peace. Its not as if there was only one adult, but there was four of them, after 30 minutes the people at the next table just left!! Then to add insult to injury, the next table along with a 'toddler' got out their potty and put it under the table and put their daughter on it in full view of everyone!! I know that potty training can be difficult but Pizzahut have toilets and large ones big enough for someone to sit on a potty in. Quite honestly after this afternoon I can understand why people who have no children sometimes quite frankly look on some parents as some kind of alien species dragged up through the dark ages!! OK feel a bit better now I got that off my chest

bit late to this party..

the tantrum would have annoyed me, though yes mine have been known to lose it in public, not for that long.

I wouldn't have noticed the potty, therefore it wouldn't have bothered me. Probably preferable to child being taken through restaurant dripping wee from its pants though.

i haven't even tried to take mine out to a cafe, not since there was more than one of them. but not because other people would disapprove, because it costs money and I wouldn't enjoy eating a nice relaxed meal with them (i think until the youngest is about 2 this will continue to be the case: eating with littlies - is work not fun.)

the lady that put out a box of toys in her office at the registrars was setting a fine example - if you give kids fun things to do, they'll quietly play instead of making trouble.

Sakura, you keep saying that corporations want to pander to children for financial reasons, then say that they don't pander enough. Which is it please? I don't think the stallholders giving my three year old gifts were all evil rapacious corporations, in fact, I know they weren't! I agree with everything that Scuttlebutter is saying, and I do have children.

I think you can get time off to care for an elderly/sick relative actually.
If not then that is pretty unfair.

I think there is a lot of provision for parents and children, and certainly more than when we were kids.
The thing is, I think I was taken to a restaurant maybe once a year, and after the age of six. People just didn't take kids to restaurants then, or sit for hours in cafe's.

There are certain things you can't reasonably do with little kids. Its just a phase of life. When they get older, you can do those things again.

It's not really a bit deal to me.

I like to get my mum to have my son occasionally so I can sneak off and read the paper in a cafe BY MYSELF (heh heh) and I would be narked if someone was letting their toddler race around screaming.

If they can't behave, don't bring 'em.

Modern children are the most pampered and indulged in history, by a very long chalk. And motherhood is fantastically fashionable and revered. Look at the 'poor Kylie' stuff, purely because she doesn't have children. Compare this to how her sister's 'value' has risen since having a child.

Which is it?
Corporations pander to children insofar as they make money out of them, but the businesman sitting opposite a mother in a coffee shop (the mother whose children he needs to sell stuff too) might tutt a lot if her children make a noise.

This is the disconnect I'm talking about

I think Pizza Hut should have said something about the potty - revoliting and gross for anyone who noticed. And probably against Health and Safety.

Tantrumming children are fair game in Pizza Hut and Macdonalds though - they are (IMO) "kddy restaruants". I wouldn't dream of going in them if I wanted peace and quiet. Though I had mine firmlyl strapped into High Chairs when they were little and I did venture in there. And I had my own crayons etc with me....

motherhood is not fashionable and revered. Only celebrity motherhood is. All those single mothers on benefits are most certainly not revered.
By. A. Long. Shot.

I think if people are constantly 'disrespecting' you or tutting at the mere sight of your child, you need to have a look at yourself. Are you perhaps overly paranoid, or exceptionally thin-skinned or are your children really not that nice to have around? I do not have this experience in my life - quite the contrary really. And as I said, my children do not behave perfectly, and one has really quite odd behaviour.

re the fictional businessman tutting - as I said, the other day my six year old daughter expressed her irritation and frustration at a child yelling and screaming in a cafe as she tried to eat her beans on toast. Is she part of the capitalist conspiracy, or is she just a human being who finds this kind of behaviour bloody annoying?

no people aren't "constantly disrespecting" me, as you put it.
I am picking up on specific instances to elaborate on a point.

Sakura, you seem to place mothers (note mothers) with small children on a pedestal where any sort of acknowledgement about how the bad behaviour of said children, and bad parenting by said mother, impacts other people is considered an attack on mothers/children in general.

this idea that Mothers of Small Children are sacred and somehow beyond reproach is very distasteful to me.

we clearly don't live in the same world - none of what you're speaking about reflects my experiences at all. and certainly bemoaning society's lack of "respect" for you whilst i consider my childless friends' treatment, and the treatment of my husband as a part-time primary carer of my kids, none of it reflects the England that I know about.

i'm in the south-west, if that helps, i have no idea if i just live in a little bubble which doesn't reflect the rest of the country - i very much doubt it though.

Are you saying that 'a businessman' can never express any irritation at any behaviour from anyone at all, just in case they might be a consumer of some kind? So if a bank teller's neighbours are playing loud music at 3am he shouldn't ask them to turn it down, as they might be a customer of the company he works for?

CCF, you have to remember too, that many mothers block out the way they are treated by society. Lots of minorities do the same. They become oblivious over time to the way they are regarded.

So true, CCF, reminding me of my earlier point that some parents really do seem to accept their DCs' noisy, disruptive, dangerous, anti-social behaviour as a badge of honour - "look at me, I've produced a child" - it's so difficult, random & expensive to have a child nowadays that I suppose people are blinded to the reality of how awful their DCs really are for everyone else. I also agree with Sakura that children are fodder for the corporations from the moment of their conception - and they know it. I teach 'pester power' in Business Studies, they all immediately identify with the concept and agree that they have been guilty of putting undue pressure on their parents due to advertising.

Nope, I don't think mothers should be revered.

I have been very suprised at how little general respect they receive, however.

You seem remarkably unconcerned about respecting other people's desire for a bit of peace, say, while demanding a great deal of respect for yourself as a sacred Mother of Small Children. And I am giggling about the idea that I have repressed all the memories of the Appalling Treatment I must have received as a Mother of Small Children,because it couldn't possibly be the case that in fact, I find my children are pretty much indulged and petted wherever we go. On the train the other day, a old lady came over specifically to chat to them and to me, lots of people smiled at us. The man selling poppies took time to chat to them. I took them to a day for kids at a famous bookshop (all free) where they were able to take part in activities and were given gifts. In a little independent cafe, my daughter's order of warm milk came with a heart on the top in chocolate powder, to her delight. My life is studded with this sort of thing.

No, I don't think I'm a Sacred MOther as you put it, but I do think the contempt towards mothers in the media is reflected in society and the way society regards mothers and their children (except when there's money to be made)

Oh, and when my son (autistic) began to kick off in the (small, independent) bookshop, I noticed that the owners looked a bit nervous, but they didn't say a word. The other customers minded their own business, but I felt his behaviour was unacceptable, so we left. I suspect in the past, the owners would have told my son off. This just doesn't happen any more.

Sakura, you have a very negative view of almost everything to do with children in our society. I can only assume that you have had a whole succession of bad experiences.

I agree with those who say that we are actually very lucky in that so many restaurants, museums etc take account of the needs of children by supplying high chairs, changing rooms, toys etc. When I was a child it was incredibly rare to find a restaurant with facilities for children.

I agree that a lot of people seem to make an immediate assumption that children in a restaurant or cafe will be annoying. One of the reasons is that, in my view, what is acceptable does seem to have changed for the worse over the years. When I was a child, you tended not to witness tantrums in restaurants because children were either taken out, or not taken at all until they were old enough to behave appropriately. However, visiting restaurants was more of a treat in those days, for my family at least. There was less of an eating-out culture in the UK generally (I am talking about the late 70s and early 80s here). When my mum took me out, we went to places that were geared towards families - playgrounds, swimming, toddler groups, national trust places etc. We didn't go to cafes and restaurants - it just wasn't what mums and young children did.

Now we have much more of a cafe culture and, as mums, we have much more of a sense that we shouldn't have to change what we enjoy doing just because we have children. Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to feel that they should not have to change their lifestyle at all. When you become a parent, your family's needs and limitations change. You won't always be able to eat out when you want to. You can't have quiet time in Starbucks. It is the people who aren't willing to accept this, and insist that they have the right to do what they like and bugger everyone who doesn't like it, that gives everyone else a bad reputation.

It is not that the whole world hates parents - it is that the world has changed in the last 30 years or so, but the needs and behaviour of children has not and so many children are forced into situations where they are never going to make a good show of themselves - and a lot of the people who will be tutting will be the ones who remember 30 years ago when children were less present in certain enviroments.

On the OP specifically, YADNBU. I can't believe anyone thinks there could be any extenuating circumstances that would make "pottygate" (to borrow Emptyshell's term) acceptable.

'contempt' in the media? Gosh, you do seem to find offence everywhere.

I am also confused as to why you said I had imagined the starbucks incident

CCF, I wouldn't continue to post that sort of thing if I were you. Some Mothers of Small Children seem hellbent on thinking they are the most oppressed of all God's Children in English society - it reminds me of the 'most persecuted' Berlusconi quote

FGR and CCF, I Oppressed some Mothers of Small Children today. Two little girls of about 5 decided to have a wrestling match in the middle of a narrow pavement between some cafe chairs and a dustbin. I therefore stopped, carrying my own child and waited politely for their mothers to remove them so that I could pass only to have one of them tut at me and snarl "well, sor-ry" at me. Clearly I was Oppressing them by my presence. There will probably be an AIBU thread from them fairly soon.

At Halloween my children were given shedloads of sweets, homemade cakes and lots of kind words. I did insist that they say 'thank you' and 'happy halloween' and only take one sweet. I saw parents standing by while children grabbed and grabbed without a word of thanks. I jokingly mentioned to one parent that it got a bit dull policing things like this (actually we were having a great time) and she said (while standing well back from her kids), 'oh, I always stand outside the gate so I can't see what they are doing'. I felt sad that when people had gone to great efforts to be nice to children, that some parents couldn't even be bothered to try and instill some basic manners.

I live in Manchester and can honestly say that I have not really experienced this 'intolerance' towards mothers and children that you say is so rife in our culture Sakura. Granted, there are certain establishments (ie some restaurants) that maybe aren't the most child-friendly places in terms of facilities but there are dozens of other places that are and that I can happily go to with my two year old daughter and feel completely welcome and catered for.
Yesterday my husband and I went into town and had lunch in cafe-rouge with our daughter and got fantastic service from the staff - our daughter was given a balloon, complimentary ice-cream and juice. The waiter was lovely with her and we had a really nice, relaxing meal. Later we popped into Waterstones and were able to sit and have a coffee whilst our daughter read and did some colouring in the excellent childrens' play area. There are countless other cafes, restaurants etc near where I live which I go to regualarly and I have never ever had a problem in terms of how my daughter and I are treated, by staff or by other customers. I really can't believe people can be as intolerant as you make out.