I now know I'm right about little girls and the hijab.....

[PosieComeHereMyPreciousParker]

talking to a beautiful Somali lady today(they all have hollywood smiles don't they, bloody genetic miracles!!) and she confirmed that whilst her 5 & 7 year old dds don't cover their heads she gets harassed and pressured by men at the mosque that her dds should cover. She said that whilst she doesn't because she loves her dds hair, other women do cover their very young dds. She said the men also say that unless they do it from very young they will not do it when they are the right age!

So it's not only about copying Mummy, just like the rise of the burka it's a renewed stick to beat women with.

Amen to that.

Only the most extreme think that girls younger than puberty should cover their hair though.

There are extremists in every religion.

Last week we were all subjected to the argument that school kids have to wear business dress or they'll never do it when they're old enough to go to work (and presumably work in an environment where business dress is the way to because an occupation that didn't require suits would be inferior) on another thread. Clearly, us humans are in no way adaptable.

I think its very sad that this particular woman feels pressured into covering her children's heads when she doesn't want to. But I don't think that makes the burka intrinsically an object of oppression anymore than high heels are

I don't agree Laurie. On Sunday I saw eight Muslim families and every girl not in a pushchair was covered. At the supermarket, park and cinema and so not only one group.

Poorly, heels are a fashion item not dictated by a religious book. It is an evolved thing and not something constructed or made up 1000 years ago that we still feel is relevant.

WTF?

Whilst I do not claim to have anything but a novice knowledge of the Muslim faith/culture why would a child need her head covered? I thought the hijab was to avoid unwanted sexual attention? Surely being under 16 is deterrent enough for sexual advances.

Just goes to show what perverse minds these men must have?

I live in an area with a big Somali population and it does make me very sad to see tiny little girls wearing the full robe and covering their heads. I don't understand it at all. They have absolutely no choice in the matter at that age .

Which area do you live in Posie ? As I would say that it is particular to communities.

Less than 2% of Moslems think that it is part of scripture (it's not part of scripture) so it is more likely cultural where you are.

I live in Bristol.

well, there was a campaign recently by the TUC to ban heels at work because they are used to oppress women.

I think wearing a veil is a complex and ambiguous thing. Some muslim girls and women love being covered up. They say they find it gives them freedom. Some of them even choose to cover up (against the wishes of their families etc). Others are compelled to do it.

Well, taking the TUC's argument to it's logical conclusion, make-up should also be banned in the workplace. And skirts.

Health and safety would be a more appropriate argument.

I don't think it's complex and ambiguous at all. I think it's oppression pure and simple.

Who given the choice would wear a full head covering? Who born in a free society does it? No-one. And damn straight none of the men in any society do.

YUK! Sorry but those things are a disgusting offence to women and men alike. I have 2 DD's and don't want them seeing the things...there is no viable excuse for them in my opinon I have NO tolerance whatsoever.

yes, my point is that the argument is silly. The actual item itself is not the problem.

There may be problematic uses of an item within particular cultural practice, but the item itself can be good or bad.

and there are women born in this country (which, i'd imagine you think qualifies as a 'free society') who choose to cover up.

My own sister chooses to wear a headscarf. Her background is not Muslim, and she did it of her own volition. In fact, my parents would absolutely prefer that she didn't wear it.

We have many muslim friends, I haven't seen any of their little girls covering before puberty.

And why on earth would you "clench" if you saw a woman in a full veil??

From a personal point of view I find a muffin top bothers me more than a veil.

Am I right in thinking they are to help the girls "stay chaste" and not be a temptation to men?

I think I am right in that...if that's the case, what would Muslims think if a woman wore a hijab and painted tits on it? Would that still be chaste? Because my hair would be covered and my face....it would just have tits all over it.

FMGS...yes, it's to help men not lust after them because it's the woman's fault if the man is a lecherous twunt, of course. Personally I think it's perverse to protect a child from a man's gaze, what on earth do these people think of their men?

I too clench when I see a woman in a burka....not very cohesive to British society is it?

So a muffin top (flesh!) offends you but seeing a woman covered head to toe in fabric so she is not a temptation to men is less offensive? That's some skewed view.

Why don't men wear them? Where's the equality in that?

I agree with the French minister who said they are a 'walking coffin' and I clench when I see women in them because they represent a basic lack of freedom. A muffin top doesn't.

Actually I didn't write the original clenching post, just stealing someone else's words, sorry.

When I see women covered I have to remind myself that we are in 2010....

I don't know if I feel more sorry for the women who wear them because they are forced or the ones who wear them out of choice because they've grown up with it being acceptable.

Also, it's a bit fucking presumptious isn't it? Assuming that unless you cover yourself that you will render all men into sex pests with zero self-control.