I now know I'm right about little girls and the hijab.....

[PosieComeHereMyPreciousParker]

talking to a beautiful Somali lady today(they all have hollywood smiles don't they, bloody genetic miracles!!) and she confirmed that whilst her 5 & 7 year old dds don't cover their heads she gets harassed and pressured by men at the mosque that her dds should cover. She said that whilst she doesn't because she loves her dds hair, other women do cover their very young dds. She said the men also say that unless they do it from very young they will not do it when they are the right age!

So it's not only about copying Mummy, just like the rise of the burka it's a renewed stick to beat women with.

Nelly...brilliant post.

It's a difficult and painful issue, isn't it?

Sure, but the cries of bigot and racist everytime we dare to broach the practices in some religions make the discussion really hard. I have some lovely Muslim friends who struggle with the same issues I do, Iranians most of them and so they love the fact that they don't have to cover here. I do worry about Britain and Britishness when I see more and more Muslims of any ethnicity as I fear Islam being so directive and British culture will always have great difficulties in being side by side.

This thread was about children though, but I am neither ashamed or embarrassed to admit to finding one of world's largest and fastest growing religions really scary, as an atheist.

...apologies but I have to go, I shall return later though

I don't think you're a bigot PosieP. Carry on banging your drum and good on you for it. This isnt racial for me. It's a feminist issue. I'm intolerant of misogyny. Handily for muslims their misogyny is neatly wrapped up in 'religious' and 'racial' issues which makes it easy of them to get away with their nonsense

Yes it's intelligible

Victoria your name always makes me think of eating cake!! Thanks for that, sometimes after lots of accusations of being a bigot I do have a little word with myself to check that I'm not and that my only issue with Islam above other mainstream religions is that it is so obviously prejudiced against women, the avergae worshipper not like Catholics who reserve their prejudice for the hierarchy!!

I think before accusing a religion of being prejudiced against women you should really do your homework! - Men and women are different, whether you like it or not (note i say DIFFERENT-not better or worse).

Did you know that in Islam it has been told that the mother deserves three times more love/respect/good treatment than the father? - sounds good to me!!

Posie, you really need do more research before putting comments like the above. You may not be a bigot but you are definately coming across as ignorant...

Posie..I think your missing someone you used to be friends with.

Mother.....seriously, give it a rest.

Addicted, it is prejudiced against women.

Personally I have issues with all religions that treat women differently for their own good. I don't like the rise of the Evangelical Christians either and I think the Pope has blood in his hands with all the anti-condom propaganda he espouses.
Yes, the veil is a feminist and at the same time a cultural issue of identity and thus it divides us to no end.

My problem is what happens to little children, that haven't actively chosen to be part of a religion and yet live by it, if I saw little boys too made to be "modest" I wouldn't have a problem as there would be one rule for all, but it's only the girls isn't it. They are simply too young to be deemed immodest in any way.

I have no problem with women wearing veils, just the young girls make me despair a bit.

Posie - you keep talking about it being prejeduiced yet you know no facts - simply by stating something does not make it true.

Nellykats - both girls and boys / men and women are told to dress modestly - although, obviously not in exactly the same way.

I don't know any young girl that has told to cover up becuase they are being 'immodest' - not sure where you have heard this from? (btw posie is not the best source of information as she quite clearly doesn't like to do any research!)

and, Posie, you're not a bigot and neither a racist, it's a shame when one's feminist concerns get so grossly misinterpreted!

Feminist - come on!! Feminism aint got nothing to do with it...the first religion to give women any rights was Islam! Seriously people, read up before you comment!

AddictedToCoffee, girls that cover up may be imitating their mums (or as in the case of the lady that Posie mentioned get actively coerced by the community) but there are a lot of things my son wants to imitate that I do, that I won't let him. I occasionaly drink alcohol, should he be able to? Should he watch scary films, drive a car (!), smoke?
No, he is little and therefor goes by different rules. A 6 year old girl should not be encouraged or even allowed to dress like an adult woman, and you cannot say that the veil is simply a head dress. It signifies modesty, it signifies that only a man in your family or your husband can see your hair etc.
All these things have no place in a child's world.
Would you dress your young daughter with a veil? By the way, you sound like a calm and kind woman, I hope I'm not offending you or putting you in an awkward spot.

Posie, they have just pulled the guts out of the state, caused by oil grabbing wars and insane banker greed ,with the now real possibility of ensuring civil unrest and your here fixated on what somebody is sticking on there kids head.

The real battle for women's right is not here,its when we lose our jobs and equal pay, when we see our children and our family ground under by unemployment,the maternity wards closed,and our nursery places cut,and your on about a bit of cloth, and a costume dictated by a cultural difference.

We have the right to dress our children as we see fit within the bounds of decency, until there old enough to escape and burn the scratchy woolly hats of doom our parents made us wear.

You are isolating your self by a fixation.

I tried.

See you around.

Thanks for the kind words - i don't mind at all, definately no awkward spots.

You are correct, young children should not be able to imitate everything that an adult does, but quite clealy some things are dangerous / not good for their health and other things are harmless (for example when you see two toddlers holding hands or giving the other a kiss, these things are very innocent but adults see these actions in a different light). So is the case with a hijab - there is no harm for a young girl to copy her mother in this respect, it is very unlikely that a mother would tell her young child that she needs to cover up because of modesty. It is only adults that attach that significance to the act.

...but...Motherfunster, what about that piece of halibut? And Jehovah? Eh? how can you go? :(

AddictedToCoffee, we see this through different viewpoints, I do see harm in it and you clearly don't - but still it's good to discuss and hear eachother out isn't it?

One last time for you Nelly.

JAHOVAH! JAHOVAH!

Over and out.

It's always enlightening to hear other's viewpoints....sometimes it's good to learn from others too :)

:)
same here