I now know I'm right about little girls and the hijab.....

[PosieComeHereMyPreciousParker]

talking to a beautiful Somali lady today(they all have hollywood smiles don't they, bloody genetic miracles!!) and she confirmed that whilst her 5 & 7 year old dds don't cover their heads she gets harassed and pressured by men at the mosque that her dds should cover. She said that whilst she doesn't because she loves her dds hair, other women do cover their very young dds. She said the men also say that unless they do it from very young they will not do it when they are the right age!

So it's not only about copying Mummy, just like the rise of the burka it's a renewed stick to beat women with.

I don't know if I feel more sorry for the women who wear them because they are forced or the ones who wear them out of choice because they've grown up with it being acceptable.

Also, it's a bit fucking presumptious isn't it? Assuming that unless you cover yourself that you will render all men into sex pests with zero self-control.

I once saw a very young girl in Whitechapel (no older than about 6, I suppose, not that it was easy to tell ) fully veiled. Made me really sad. Little girls in hijabs don't seem so bad in comparison, not that I agree with either.

but think the original OP was going on about hijab, lot different from a burkha and hardly offensive, to me anyway. Do many really find the hijab offensive or just when on little girls?

As I said, some women in this country choose to wear a veil of their own choice, and they didn't grow up with it as a cultural norm. They were not duped in some way, they made a choice.

Some British Muslim women come from families and communities where there is no expectation that they should cover up, but they also choose to cover up.

It doesn't help us to assume that everyone is forced or duped into wearing one.

...

Generally I find covering rather archaic but on children I think it's vile.

I fully understand the arguement that wearing a veil can free people from the 'tyranny' of people's expectations based on a woman's looks and clothes. I heard this point put very eloquently and well by a female muslim academic.

I would, however be really interested to know how many of the women who wear veils are allowed to benefit from the 'freedom from tyranny' that the wearing of the veil gives them. How many have high flying careers where they are not judged on their looks by men? How many enjoy unescorted days and nights out, free from harassment?

I am not sure if these stats exist, but my gut tells me that many (not all, I realise) of these women derive few benefits from the wearing of the veil. It meets their religious obligations, yes, and I guess that for them this is the primary driver. But surely the reason they do it is for modesty demanded by their religion - and if they are therefore protected by the veil they should be able to go out and engage with society. In fact, the fact that feel obliged to cover themselves appears to sit with a cultural or family view that also stops them from having a career or fully engaging with the world.

Mumcentreplus...that adds nothing so why bother?

i think it is sad that they have to wear veils especially in primary school. I find it hard to understand.

But Riven, surely you've been oppressed or duped! You couldn't have made a choice for yourself.

what do you wear when out and about Riven, just curious?

Why not Posie? who made you monitor of posts?..fucksake...

Riven you have categorically denied that girls are pressured into covering well before puberty, when they obviously need protection from Men, and you're wrong. And we know you wear what you want, although it does make the religious argument a load of bollocks when you pick and choose whether or not to cover, makes it about style more than modesty. If Islam stands out as an oppressive religion it should be prepared to be criticised, this is a free country.

For a start noone knows what the was about.

I'm not sure Islam does stand out as an oppressive religion. There are plenty of oppressive branches of Christianity...

like.....

Some people are pressured...it is also possible that some people make a choice..why is that hard to understand??...because you would not make the same choice?...

So what Posie?...make of what you will..

I've heard that some Christian churches don't care so much for gay people. They might have advocated having them killed.

of course, you may not consider that oppressive.

i don't accept the argument that it is for women to ward off the leering men. well actually i do accept the argument and that's the problem. if it was about preventing sexual advances and was not about oppression then men of teh same faith would also wear them. the fact that only women wear them tells me that it is dictated (on the most part, i know not all muslims are forced to wear them) and only for the purpose of oppression.

There are Christian sects that require modesty from their female followers. Plymouth Brethren, I think - and all those nutters (sorry....buts that what they are...) in Utah that have 42 wives, 116 kids etc . All those women dressed in huge ankle length smocks with their hair pinned up, and married off to their uncles when they are 12.

That said, numbers wise I would have thought that they are much smaller then the number of muslim veil wearers. I have no problem with free choice, but I have issues with a 6 year old girl wearing a veil (because that is no choice.) Just like I have an issue with an extreme Mormon sect marrying off 12 year old girls to family members.

Its all a form of abuse.

As my previous post mentioned, I would also question how many muslim women (who wear the veil) in general are able to experience free choice across a variety of areas of their life. Riven - I know you have made that choice, and I would not support the banning of the veil in any way - but I do think we should challenge some of the cultural practices that go with the wearing of the veil in some communities.