I now know I'm right about little girls and the hijab.....

[PosieComeHereMyPreciousParker]

talking to a beautiful Somali lady today(they all have hollywood smiles don't they, bloody genetic miracles!!) and she confirmed that whilst her 5 & 7 year old dds don't cover their heads she gets harassed and pressured by men at the mosque that her dds should cover. She said that whilst she doesn't because she loves her dds hair, other women do cover their very young dds. She said the men also say that unless they do it from very young they will not do it when they are the right age!

So it's not only about copying Mummy, just like the rise of the burka it's a renewed stick to beat women with.

Oh god clemetteattlee - I worked at a Catholic school at one point and during Lent it was ridiculous - cries and shrieks in the staffroom about how "I REALLY AM DENYING MYSELF CHOCOLATE HOBKNOBS FOR CHRIST THIS YEAR" and idiot women desperately trying to snort lines of hot chocolate on the staffroom table (almost - it came close). It's not just mosques that can get this holy competition going on - this lot took it to an art form.

Strangely they didn't appreciate the bright spark who announced his plan was to give up school for Lent (I thought he got full marks for sheer cheek and effort).

wait a minute... why are patent shoes inappropriate for little girls? Surely party dresses are traditionally accompanied by patent shoes?

a lady at the school wears a hijab. she always looks fantastic. a lot better than me with my scarecrow hair and crazy dress each morning with porriage smeared on it.

"And damn straight none of the men in any society do." Don't Sikh men cover their hair? Or at least some of it?

ForMash - people in some societies may think that our taboo about breasts is bonkers. Taboos are culturally formed, and just because hair isn't taboo in your culture doesn't make you right.

And if your dds ask, why can't you say it's part of their religion and leave it at that? It's the same as asking why Catholic priests can't marry, and stacks of other proscriptions from religions all over the world - if you're not part of it, it quite often makes no sense.

misdee, does your hair and porridge combo protect you from unwanted advances? Think mine does...

never mind the hair and porridge... can someone tell me what the problem with patent shoes is?

If they're very shiny, maybe they dazzle passers-by?

surely that could be a positive feature though?

My greatgrandmother used to say that a lady would not wear patent leather shoes, because they might reflect her underwear.

Lelli Kellis come with free make up, thus encouraing the sexualisation of young girls, given that the historical role of make up was to make women look sexually alluring.

But still I would defend the right of every adult woman to choose them (but not impose the ugliness of them on their daughters )

clemette - I take you point - but that is why I acknowledged that not all women wearing the veil were oppressed by their cultural traditions.

As a liberal, I think we should allow people to wear what they wish. As a woman and a mother I find the idea of making your small child cover up because you perceive her (and think others do) as a sexual being is a appalling; but I accept this is the more extreme interpretation of Islam.

As a feminist I do find it worrying that more women than before appear choose to cover themselves because they feel that certain forms of interaction with men should not be allowed to them.

BUT - I equally find it sad that other young women in our society judge themselves purely on their looks.

I don't think it is purely religious - as has been mentioned on this thread. I think that some of the cultural interpretations of religious obligation are what need to be challenged. Surely in some of the communities where young children are wearing the veil, there are still young girls being circumcised, or forced marriages occuring? Are we supposed to ignore these? Can't we seperate the religious and the cultural? Maybe not - as unfortunately certain interpretations of Islam seem to come with these horrendous cultural issues.

habbi, i think so. dh is at work at that time so i cant dazzle him with the porriage

fwiw, I also don't like and don't agree with the preceived necessity to cover up, and am very uncomfortable with the fact that it's women who feel they have to do so. But we have our own taboos (about breasts, say), and in our culture we cover them up in public, as a rule. Should we feel uncomfortable about that too? Genuine q, just musing.

I really don't see how what women choose to wear is anyone's business. As for haircovering?

Some Orthodox Jewish women do it
Some Muslim women do it
Some Catholics do it depending on the occasion
Some christian sects do it like the Amish
Some old people do it (because they don't want their set to flop in the weather or because they can remember a time when you weren't properly dressed without a hat)

And yes, some women are oppressed. But how many of those women do you see? Not that many I suspect as they're not allowed independent lives and decision making. That's oppression. Not a head scarf, niqabb, burkha or yashmak.

And fwiw I quite fancy one of the tent-like over garments (I forget the name) and a head scarf. It would save me having to find lots of different, fashionable clothes to wear which is the modern oppression. And I'm not any religion or oppressed by my husband... just occasionally by other women who make stupid judgements about others based on what they're wearing.

For some teenage Muslim girls, wearing a burka is actaully a form of rebellion.

I know a few families around here, where the mother wears the Hijab but is against the Burka, yet the daughters insist on wearing it against the wishes of their family.

notyummy "As a feminist I do find it worrying that more women than before appear choose to cover themselves because they feel that certain forms of interaction with men should not be allowed to them."

From my experience, those that choose to cover up do so because they don't want men to judge them on their looks but on their personality and also because they don't want to have to worry about what they look like (i.e. subscribe to fashion ideals) - I would have thought that a sound feminist principal

Marchpane you missed out Baptised Sikh men.

Waits for Posie to start a thread about how seeing 10 year old Sikh boys with their head coverings makes her uncomfortable.

You are right Lenak - some articulate ladies who are allowed to fully interact with society state that they are trying to define themselves by more than their looks by wearing the veil. But the reason their religion originally asks them to cover up is because they should be modest - not because the teachings think that it supports their feminist right to be freedom from a 'lookist' society. These teachings are interpreted in a variety of ways, and in some societies that interpretation is one that is utterly abhorrent to most feminists. Now, I think these cultural groups make up a small amount of muslims in the UK, but I still find it disturbing that oppression of women and children goes unchallenged because the British way is to live and not live.

I also realise that there are other religions where various forms of oppression are practised. This query was about young muslim girls being covered which is why I am using this as an example.

thesecondcoming well said, me thinks the op is a bit obsessive about riven

There is nothing sound about a principal that requires submission from a woman to protect her from the behaviour of men.