I now know I'm right about little girls and the hijab.....

[PosieComeHereMyPreciousParker]

talking to a beautiful Somali lady today(they all have hollywood smiles don't they, bloody genetic miracles!!) and she confirmed that whilst her 5 & 7 year old dds don't cover their heads she gets harassed and pressured by men at the mosque that her dds should cover. She said that whilst she doesn't because she loves her dds hair, other women do cover their very young dds. She said the men also say that unless they do it from very young they will not do it when they are the right age!

So it's not only about copying Mummy, just like the rise of the burka it's a renewed stick to beat women with.

Don't so much see it as an Islamic thing as much as a cultural issue. Have had my eyes opened recently to the cultural realities many Pakistani muslim women face, I don't then think that every other Muslim lives their life the same way.

The reason for this thread is because it has always been denied that Muslim girls are not forced or coerced to cover before they're young women, I now know that that they are. Until these injustices are dealt with I think it is fair to comment on them.

denied that they are

who is denying it?

Obviously some women are coerced into it. Some women are coerced into all sorts of things.

I am still offended by them....forced or otherwise....those who claim to choose them because they are "freeing" them from judgement regarding looks or clothing are talking bollocks....and why should they be allowed to hide their physical beings from society because it makes THEM feel "free"...how does it make everyone else feel? I for one resent not being allowed to see someone's facial expressions... I could walk about with a bloody cardboard box on my head then if I chose...and insist the bank and jewelers let me in and serve me because it's my right to hide. No. Claptrap and bollicks.

discobeaver asks : "Who given the choice would wear a full head covering? Who born in a free society does it? No-one. And damn straight none of the men in any society do."

The answer is plenty of feisty, independent Muslim women.

notyummy asks: "I would, however be really interested to know how many of the women who wear veils are allowed to benefit from the 'freedom from tyranny' that the wearing of the veil gives them. How many have high flying careers where they are not judged on their looks by men? How many enjoy unescorted days and nights out, free from harassment?"

You might get your answer if you come to my medical school. Lots of well-educated and high-achieving women who will be the main breadwinner in their families when qualified who make an active choice to wear the hijab.

It is of course a separate issue to forcing them on childrem, but it is simplistic and ignorant for people to assume that all Muslim women who choose to cover their heads are oppressed. It would not be my choice, but if it is a free choice I respect a woman's right to make it.

smallwhitecat, do you know what the hijab is? I think you might be confused...

Oh secondcoming you simply Can't compare lelli kelli's to a hijab! Just don't go there. You are not telling us you would rather a child be covered like a bloody budgie cage than wear a modern/slightly common pair of shoes!

Sorry, that was meant for ForMash (trying to scroll on the iphone...)

Do not agree with opressing women, and hiding behind clothing is a form of opression handed down by ignorance and a lack of self control.

Is everyone going to conflate the hijab with the burqa?? The OP asked about the hijab...

Stupid argument to say I'd rather a girl cover than where patent shoes....a child could dress like a child.

When I went to St Peters in Vatican city I was asked to cover my head as were the little girls around me...

I know what a hijab is clem...sorry...I get ranty and I lump them with the Burqa...they all annoy me and they look stupid. hair is hair. It's not a boob or a bottom...it's hair.

So what clem? I was asked to take my shoes off when I entered a temple...I did it...these people are being hassled because their traditions jar with our culture...we don't tend to be comfrable around Medieval practices.

But by definition a rant is not reasoned or rational. YOU might not like them but why should YOUR view take precedence over that of other independent women?

I am waiting for someone to say 'I'm not racist, but.....'

I am not defending the hijab for children, I wouldn't wear a hijab myself, but the ranting that all women who wear them are oppressed and "look stupid" is ignorant and ill-founded.

Before everyone goes overboard blaming the men at the mosque, I'm reliably informed that there is often among the women of a mosque a slightly bitchy competitive element about 'who can be holier than whom?' They're quick to point out to another sister that she's got a bit of ankle or a lock of hair showing.... out of pure concern for her heavenly prospects, you understand. Peer pressure comes from all directions, you'll find, and repression can be internal as well as external

Half the planet does get all the different types of headcoverings muddled up (there was a good guide on the BBC News site a few months ago as to which was which - may be findable if you're very confuddled).

It doesn't actually bother me that much - I view it as that family's choice what their kids wear. Doesn't even bother me with burkas - the only time that DOES bother me is when women are driving cars with it on because that cannot possibly be safe (and you do see that one on occasions around here)!

One of the things I heard from a year 6 girl in a school in a very very strongly Asian part of town, where lots of them do wear headcoverings from a very early age was a comment along the lines of (I forget the exact wording - we're going back probably about 4 years or so now but it stuck in my mind), "Some schools have uniforms that they all wear, but I like it here because our school's always bright and colourful" - that's genuinely how she saw it, not that they were being hideously oppressed by wearing Islamic dress - but that they wore lots of pretty colours to school instead of blue/green/red uniforms.

Lots of the women I've met who've chosen to wear veils are actually the least shrinking violet you'd ever meet!

ForMash, surely not liking talking to people when you can't see their face is entirely different to feeling something is oppressive.

I don't really like talking to people when I can't see their faces. I like to see their facial expressions so I can judge quite how much they think I'm a moron and adapt my tactics so as to fool them into thinking otherwise. However, this has nothing at all to do with their reasons for wearing a veil.

Incidentally, I suspect some people object to the hijab and the burka. Because covering your hair up is terrible.

Clem...women in them do look stupid but that is up to them...what I resent is my daughters asking me why those women are wearing them and I have to say that it is so they are modest. WHAT!? How do I tell my DD's that some people think HAIR is tempting.