AIBU to storm out of family dinner...

[lecohen]

Long story short, my niece bit my daughter in the face, hub and I shout at her to stop and we get an earful for shouting...niece gets no discipline, my child no sympathy.

And what REALLY winds me up is the DENIAL that it happened in the first place because they hadn't witnessed it at that time (even though they KNOW she regularly does it)... It hurts that they need to have seen it to react to it!

I think your brother and sister in law could have made emmollient gestures but that you sound quite judgey and maybe they pick up on that and so retreat and feel picked on. I know that sounds a bit silly

Also, some parents feel inhibited telling off/explaining/naughty-stepping their kids when others are there. Not saying that's good, but I think a lot of these acrimonius disputes stem from misunderstandings, and also projections of your deep feelings about the child, or the parents. You might see them as free and easy before they had kids, this colours how you see them discipline.

Sigh, there's just this undertone from some people that if you don't adhere to the punishments/rewards model of discipline then you are raising an badly behaved child. Biting is for some (albeit upsetting for pretty much all concerned) very linked with early development and while not nice, not acceptable and needs a swift interception, it isn't naughty in quite the same way that a 4 year old might shove.

There is just no way to tell (it's just your confirmation bias) that they way they are behaving is a direct result of how they are parented. It's too simplistic to reduce what is an incredibly complex set of relationships and drivers to this basic calculation.

Discipline means teaching. And you don't really learn about how to treat others with kindness and respect by by being shouted out. Not in the long term.

Thanks Otch...wow, I sound "judgey" wow! I do have a great belief in discipline but there are many ways of doing so... Ignoring a biting child (yes does not mean "naughty necessarily" I agree) is not my way, nor is pretending it didn't happen, nor is not offering any apology or acknowledgement for the bitten child. If that makes me "judgey" so be it!

My eldest was a biter, pincher and scratcher BUT we worked very hard with her and thankfully it did not last long. She is 4 now and is the sweetest, kindest and gentle child you would meet.

I am thankful that other than my bro and his wife, in my circle, we all share these thoughts and help each other with useful advice to achieve a positive and happy child who is a pleasure to be with and not a threat to others.

To add....if my niece touches the plasma screen or playstation, she gets a serious telling off...but if she BITES another child or hurts in other ways - NOTHING!

And if you knew me or my brother, you would quickly learn that I am not the "judgey" one but he def is!

I do accept this point you make:

"Also, some parents feel inhibited telling off/explaining/naughty-stepping their kids when others are there. Not saying that's good, but I think a lot of these acrimonius disputes stem from misunderstandings, and also projections of your deep feelings about the child, or the parents. You might see them as free and easy before they had kids, this colours how you see them discipline. "

But it is very selective as to what they choose to discipline more harshly and what they consider to be more unacceptable than biting.

It is the inconsistency in their disciplining that tells me that it is not actually the case that they would not so much discipline in front of others...it is selective!

sigh

You sound prickly yes. You are judging your BILs, yes. So yes, you're being judgey. I've been judgey about some parents I know. But I'm trying to get to the bottom of why this really gets to you and I think there might be other issues, (you mention plasma screens ... the implication there being they are materialistic -- that's judgey)

This has bothered you all out of proportion. That's not a criticism, just an observation. I think it runs deeper than a bit of perceived laxness when it comes to discipline. Basically if you liked someone you tend to cut them slack (unless they do something epoch shatteringly bad). If you don't like them, you'll (confirmation bias again) find fault more readily.

We all do it. Anyway, hope there are no marks left on your daughter's cheeks. Time will tell if your niece will end up with ASBOs

Cross posted.

Regarding the inconsistency.

Can you finish this sentence "They do discipline their daughter for playing with stuff she's not supposed to, but they didn't stop her biting my daughter BECAUSE xxxxx" and that might get to the bottom of it. I'm serious, do you think they don't respect your daughter and you as they should?

Don't get me wrong, I've been upset when my daughter has been shoved and pushed. And yes, I'd probably raise my voice. But I'd ultimately have to let it go and leave them to it, keep them separate, pay both attention

Otch, thankfully my LO's cheek was OK, I feel it would have been worse if I hadn't reacted.

I am sure that my niece will not have an ASBO (although that was a funny comment so thanks for the relief)...children need to learn right from wrong but feel it is our duty to teach them that. I do not want her to have been beaten or anything BUT instead of undermining the fact that I was clearly upset with the biting, it should have been addressed.

I have to agree that there are def more things at play that is not really worth getting into on a public forum.

The comment about the plasma was in MO WAY at all a judgement call on "materialism" but just to point out that there leniency/harshness is selective to them but that I do not agree that touching a television should require harsher sanctions than biting or hurting another child. I am sorry that my comment was taken out of context!

no problem, and apols if I sounded arsey, it's next to impossible to convey tone on these boards.

Yep, I think I would have been annoyed too. But I'd have tried not to storm out (kind of gives them the moral highground in an odd way, they'll be able to paint you as the hysterical mother type among friends and family)

"otchayaniye Mon 27-Sep-10 13:58:45
Cross posted.

Regarding the inconsistency.

Can you finish this sentence "They do discipline their daughter for playing with stuff she's not supposed to, but they didn't stop her biting my daughter BECAUSE xxxxx" and that might get to the bottom of it. I'm serious, do you think they don't respect your daughter and you as they should?

Don't get me wrong, I've been upset when my daughter has been shoved and pushed. And yes, I'd probably raise my voice. But I'd ultimately have to let it go and leave them to it, keep them separate, pay both attention"

because....I DON'T KNOW!

That is what is so upsetting, why do they not take it seriously enough! They talk about it being normal child development but it is still an issue that needs to be addressed in my opinion.

I am not being harsher on my niece than I would be on my own.

My brother reminded me of when my eldest hurt their daughter when she was younger...I had to remind them that I equally did NOT tolerate it nor would I have been UPSET if they had told her off!

There is only so much I can sit and listen to a room full of irrational behaviour (and other non related insults were thrown at us in the works) before I decide FU all.

I don't see any judginess in commenting on what you see! If you see DN told off for touching plasma and not for bting, then state that, it's not judgey. It's the reader of those facts making the judgement. Which (when I read it) is probabky along the lines of - how utterly stupid

thanks...the irrational thing for me to have done was flip the table at them!

Leaving was the only thing that enabled me to ensure I didn't say something I might regret!

In that case you showed a level of restraint and good judgement that I can only aspire to

LOL, thanks Pinkie x

Mmm - still not comfortable with this shouting at 2 yr olds. I have a DS (age 2) and DD (just 4), and although have shouted at them both, it's only ever when I am completely exhausted or at the absolute end of my tether and I feel horrible afterwards, as I feel that I have lost control.

I treat my 4 yr old very differently than my 2 yr old in terms of teaching right from wrong, because their levels of understanding are quite different. I can reason and explain things to my DD knowing she will understand but my DS needs firm repetition and physical removal from the situation rather than 'discipline', as he is a bit too young to retain the information tbh.

I do understand that you reacted instinctively and out of fear/love/fright etc, but given that in your original post you say that you and your DH shouted, it probably sounded potentially quite frightening and/or threatening to a very young toddler, who, was just acting on instinct. One adult shouting is very different to two shouting in unison - I suspect that may be why your family reacted the way that they did.

You said earlier "Biting is not the same as a child snatching a toy or not sharing sweets!" -I actually think that for a 2 year old, it is exactly the same, until it is firmly, kindly and consistently taught otherwise. Sorry

Biting

You shout at baby

Everyone rounds on you and shouts.

You storm out

Is your MIL Peggy Mitchell?

I agree with cloudbade and other wise poster. Two year olds definitely don't have the level of understanding yet that you seem to be expecting. You just have to say "no biting" firmly but calmly and remove them from the situation. Anything more than that is counterproductive.

Given that you acted instinctively maybe you were a bit OTT? Sometimes maternal instincts can be a bit extreme. Just because something is an instinct doesn't mean it is the right way to behave. The thing I am most ashamed of in my life probably is pushing a 4-year old out of the way who was shoving and elbowing my one-year on purpose to get to the toy. It was complete maternal instinct kicking in but completely OTT. So in that way EXCUSEABLE but not the right way to behave at all

Yes hubby and I did shout together (UNPLANNED) for niece to stop...I am in no way sorry for that - I am glad we did it as we were able to prevent serious damage to our DD.

Niece was not a bag of nerves for it, she stopped immediately and confidently - she is NOT a meek child that gets upset by a telling off!

It did startle her to stop but that was it - there was no fear at all! I can say that confidently!

Well if she was only startled and your shouting was a mild as you say then I can't really see why the in laws got so upset...All a bit odd

and to add, DD2 will be 2 in dec...she DEF understands if I tell her not to throw something or smack or pull hair (very very infrequent, she is a joy thankfully) and I don't think a 2 year old can't learn right from wrong! This is a problem, a lot of parents seem to think that 2 is too young to understand not to hurt...there lies the problem!

We have a little dog and DD2 has learnt very quickly to be gentle, not to pull tail, not to be rough...honestly, children can learn a lot more than some parents realise. Maybe some parents fail their children by not realising their potential to learn and adopt good "welcomed" behaviours!

You seem very shouty in general, well that is what I am getting from all your exclamation marks.

Fine to shout in the immediate instance.

If you don't think you were unreasonable to storm out then why do you want to argue about it?

The whole family seems prone to overreaction from what you have posted here.

Sounds like you all enjoy the drama.

Lol at me being shouty...I really am not! this is a written forum, punctuations and caps are fro stressing certain words, we all write in diff ways, shame it is being construed as shouty...right now I am feeling perfectly calm.

why do you think I am trying to argue? I was faced with a situation (that I don't agree with ) and reacted accordingly...I am curious as to why others view the circumstances differently and have agreed on certain points...if you care to read back you will see that!