to think this is actually serious neglect

[scatteredbraincells]

DD (almost 15) has been working all hours under the sun during the summer to save up for a trip she wants to go to (and has made me very proud [boasting emoticon])

A neighbour asked her if she'd babysit for them this week, as their childminder had had an accident and was in hospital (she's gonna be ok). 9 hours a day, 7am to 4pm, takes 3yo to nursery at 7.30, looks after 18month old, picks up 3yo at 3pm, pretty straighforward stuff. The family has been living next door for 6 years, we know them quite a bit, have BBQs together etc.

DD went for her first day today and has just called me very upset and doesn't know what to do. Apparently when she arrived 3yo was all dressed so she started dressing 18mo for the school run, mum was still there and said "oh, don't bother with him". DD assumed mum was gonna be there until she went back, but she got back to find the baby all alone cryin hysterically to the point of throwing up. She called the mum and the mum said "don't worry, it's what we noramlly do, it's only 15 minutes and he's used to it. A bit of cryin never hurt anybody".

Now I don't know what to do. First of all, apart from cruel I think it's also dangerous to leave such a young child alone in the house, 15 or 20 minutes is a very long time. Secondly, I don't want DD involved if something were to happen.

AIBU and where do I go from here?

but the thing is Alt, what IS it that we are actually suggestign here ? what would SS want , to change to deal with this? if a child is safe, clean , warm. in a cot with a drink of water. for 15 minutes. alone whilst the parents do school run. is beyond my comprehension why you wouldn't take dc2 with you. and if it was every day, one would question oneself as to why you weren't better organised.
but no actual harm is coming to the child is it? mind you didn't op say that child was crying so much to almost make them sick ?
but really what can ss actually do? even if a new law was passed. i suspect , not-a-lot.

I am JUST at the stage of thinking I might start leaving 10 yr old DD1 at home alone for 15 mins while i take the other Dd to brownies, DD1 is very mature for 10, sensible, would have instructions on what to do in an emergency/if i was not back at the expected time etc etc

friends neighbour actually brags about how good her kids are at sleeping by saying that she leaves her 4 and 5 yr olds asleep while she drives her DH to the station EVERY morning - apparently they NEVER wake up and dont even KNOW that this happens !!!!!

how can anyone leave a baby like that?

and there is NO LAW about this?? OMG!!!

God I shuddered when I saw how old the child was. Looking back to when both of my boys were 18mths old- they were into everything, climbing out of cot, playing on the stairs - I had to have eyes in the back of my head. Just the thought of even 2 mins alone is horrendous.

Agreed. Very hard. But what exactly is it that you don't like then Alt ?
I leave my two all the time. I consider them to be safe when i hang out the washing. I also nip to the shed or the garage, all the time. Many Mn'ers wouldn't do this. But I am comfortable with my decisions. I would object to a law telling me that I can't.

ChippingIn

I think that OPs daughter is working too many hrs for it to count as babysitting.

I meant nannying not childminding as iot is in the childs house.

Either way I would have thought Ops daughter is not legally old enough.

That is my opinion only.

Also, people saying that if anything happens it would not be the daughter´s fault as she isn´t old enough-doesn´t that sort of back up what I´m saying?

So is it just down to a social worker determining what's reasonable? Because hanging out washing for 4 or 5 minutes in your own garden is very different to leaving a child alone in a house for 15 minutes while you in elsewhere, in terms of risk. Also, it would be my opinion that even if you could ensure physical safety (which you can't really) then it's still emotionally harmful to abandon a toddler for that period of time on a regular basis.

go elsewhere. Sorry.

Well I would say that if you are in the garden you are still "on the premises" iyswim, so the child isn´t actually alone.

"so personally I have no idea how we could implement such a law, however I/we still dislike it."
said Alt. now i think that is very telling.
sw'ers don't like it. it is them who decide, decsions which are then reviewed by their managers etc. and decsions taken on whether to continue with a case or not.
and they are uncomfortable with it.

and what Alt said about them choking on sick. do you mean that in previous years parents wouldn't have done these things, but they are now more lax ?

but i don't think there's anything wrong with having a child out of earshot either. there are risks when you are stood right next to them. and there are sometimes less risks when you are nowhere near them.
thats the whole defintion of risk.

and so no law can deal with this.

Oh no what happened ? Do come back and tell us when you can.....

Altinkum - why have you linked to that story about 2 police officers swapping childcare?

For others who don't know 2 female police officers were swapping child care with each other and were reported for illegal childminding. Ofstead said that the "reward" each had obtained was the benefit of the other mother looking after their child.

There was a massive public outcry and Ed Balls (the minister at the time) issued a statement to say that such arrangements were outside the scope of Ofstead.

See here.

OP's situation is not childminding.

It is babysitting/nannying.

In this country we have a history of case law and principles - therefore there is no absolute rule on children being left/what age they can be left/at what age can they look after other children.

So it is on a case by case basis and would depend on the circumstances.

NSPCA advice. In particular the NSPCA advise that a babysitter should be 16.

Maybe the lady would discontinue if she had a visit from SS to discuss this?

Yes Tabouleh, the case with the police officers was effectively dismissed as ridiculous over-interpretation of the law and beyond the scope of what the legislation was designed to do. A rare success for common sense, I think!

I am still completely mystified by the panic people are expressing about a responsible 14 year old carrying out short term childcare while someone's gaily abandoning their toddler at least a couple of times a week! The childcare issue may be technically illegal now (you learn something new every day!) but surely anyone with an ounce of sense can see that this is a non-issue by comparison to an 18 month old child being neglected in such a way. Or am I just odd?

Also Altinkum you said "childminding changed last year, and if ANYBODY, watches a child for more than 2 hours per day, for a reward"

This is not true!

Here are some examples:

If you only care for a child or children aged under eight who you are related to. A relative means a grandparent, aunt, uncle, brother or sister of a child (or half-brother or sister) or someone you are related to through marriage or civil partnership.

If you provide care for children in their own home. This includes caring for children of up to two sets of parents completely or mainly in one or both sets of parents? homes. However, you need to register as a childminder if you look after the children of three sets of parents in any or all of the parents? homes.

If you only provide care between 6pm and 2am on domestic premises (babysitting arrangements). Domestic premises can be your own home or someone else?s home.

There are other examples.

Ofstead fact sheet on when registration of childcare is not required to be registered.

Marking place, waiting for update.

I agree the 14 year old looking after the baby doesn't sound like a major issue - obviously it depends on the 14 year old, there are some teenagers you wouldn't trust to look after your dog! But if she's a sensible, mature girl, which it sounds like she is, and she's got the sense to call a responsible adult (her mum in this case) when there's something she's not happy dealing with alone, I don't see that it's anything to have a big panic over.

The other mum leaving her baby unattended sounds a lot more worrying though. But I can't help feeling it's a good thing that the law is not too prescriptive on this point, I wouldn't like to be dictated to on exactly when and where I can let my child out of my sight, and be effectively a criminal if I transgress one of the rules, I think I'm capable of using my own judgement on that. Obviously some people make bad judgements which put their child in danger, but the existing law already deals with the case where there's potential harm to the child.

Ed Balls on private childcare arrangements between friends

Also the article mentions that if the frequency of the arrangement is for less than 14 days a year then there's no need for registration, so on that particular count the OP's daughter would be fine anyway.

caring for a child in the child's own home is not childminding