to find it completely amazing that some people never shout at their kids?

[undercovamutha]

Seriously I am at the fact that so many people on MN never raise their voice to their kids.

I hold my hands up as a culprit of excessive ranting at DCs. Don't know if its just me, or whether (as I suspect) my DD is particularly infuriating (although very lovely!).

How do you zen-like people manage it? Are some kind of drugs involved? 24/7 telly watching? Wine? What is the answer? (and don't even get me started on 'How to talk...').

Glitterandglue, we must have had the same training! I frequently sometimes made 4-year-olds go out shoeless, just so they could see why it's a better idea to put them on ... I would never repeat a command like that, Mollie. It serves no purpose.

I never shout at my ds. Occasionally have raised my voice..but he is uber sensitive and goes into complete meltdown if we are even a tiny bit harsh with him....part of his dyspraxia...

Katie, I hardly think the size of ones house is necessarily a determining factor, I live in a one bedroom flat and find it perfectly possible to have a shouting free life. And do remember, a profile tells you little about people. So its kind of rude to say someone who lives in a biggish house doesn't have the same stresses of others...in fact, its a bloody stupid statement. like having a spare bedroom will turn you into a perfect parent...

See I try my best NOT to shout. But it is a very hard, exhausting battle. I AM shouting inside (will you F**cking get down here now and stop dicking me around!!) but I don't externalise it (very rarely anyway and without the bad language I promise) So it's not the incredulity of people not shouting, it's them not even WANTING to shout which I find amazing. I HATE the fact that I get so annoyed at my children (particularly my son who is 6) and it ties me up in knots trying to be so CALM about it.

I have let rip lately but it is never in an in-the-face pointing scary way. However, the biggest thing that my child does to me is say that he is going to get VERY angry and punch himself in the face just because I have calmly told him that his behaviour is unnacceptable and will he please just go over there and calm down. I look at my child when he is fuming and threatening these things and KNOW that he is feeling a cauldron of emotions that I can really relate to. I feel a real phony when I do all my sing songy placatory stuff because I know he can see right through it.

I have read the How to Talk book and utilised it this very day when my son was absolutely distraught and unreasonably cruel to his sister because he had lost an earwig he had been carrying in the middle of Debenhams - he was sobbing and I was all "you sound very sad" , " you sound very angry" - but WTF do you say when he says he's going to bury himself in a hole and disappear?...

I just think sometimes that anger is hereditary. The only person I have ever had the courage to be angry at is my mother - and she only ever had the courage to be angry at me. Meanwhile we never had the courage to be angry at my father/her husband because he backed it up with the threat of REAL violence; seldom unleashed admittedly but there nevertheless.

When I feel utterly powerless in the face of my child's defiance/unreasonableness I sometimes wonder whether a dose of shouty fearsomeness would curtail his behaviour. Writing this down now I know that this is a no no.

In summary, I hate seeing people shout at children in an unthinking, out of control way. But I also am in awe of those that don't even seem to vibrate any Richter scale of anger in their dealings with their children. I think I might personally have to resort to valium to be that person.

Coldfield, that was incredibly revealing & honest post. Thank you. Perhaps, in writing it, you noticed properly (maybe even for the first time) how you're replaying your mother's script? She was angry & frustrated but afraid or unwilling to take it out on her husband - but, as you say, had the courage to be angry at you?

That was undertandable for her. You were just a little girl so, whilst you understood what was driving her, you weren't in a position to help her or change things. Children have their own logic, using what information they have to create 'rules for life'. To you when you were little, that could very well have tanslated to something like "It's safe for Mum to shout at me and I understand, so I won't mind." Net result, you allow yourself - as a mother - to vent anger at your kids, then feel upset when they show it hurts them.

Your kids aren't little reincarnations of you, they have their own world-view and individual feelings. Hopefully it's not necessary for them to act as a buffer between you & your DH, like you did for your mum. Is this making any sense at all?

Seriously, this is why counting to ten really does work. It gives you a ten-second breathing space, where you can query what you're about to do - and see if there's a better way There usually is!

I'm very wary of coming across all preachy here, but decided to go for this anyway! You know where you told us you practise what the "How to talk" books advise, but describe it as sing-songy & phony? Well, that'll be the reason why it's not working as planned ...

The idea behind it is empathy. It's a massive bonus, to you, that you remember how it felt to be small and frustrated, angry & sad. If you let yourself get into DS's mood for a few seconds, you'll most likely find it does work! There's a difference between him, now, and you as a little girl: one you can be proud of. If something happened to you as a child, which caused you childish despair (like losing your earwig!), you would have moderated your response because you felt responsible for your mother's feelings - you tolerated her anger, and I'm sure protected her (as much as you could) from feeling further upset by your problems.

Now that's not really fair on a little girl but it happened and you came through it okay
Thing is, YOUR kids don't have to protect their Mum because you're a lovely grown-up - you're especially capable of appreciating their upsets; you remember yours. All you need to do is sympathise, genuinely. And I'm sure you can do that - and show it to them.

Thanks ItsGrace for your obviously well thought-out and considered reply - there's definitely something there - and I don't want to repeat the pattern. Fortunately my partner is a gentle person who doesn't shout or argue and make me or our children feel threatened in any way - but I know there is some dynamic working there that is familiar and a path that has previously been trodden!

But you are right, I don't show this side (of anger) to ANYONE else so why the hell should I be demonstrating it to my own dearly beloved child. I am seriously considering valium - I wasted a lot of money and 3 years of my life on therapy a long time ago and it obviously did me no good! When I remember to count to 10 it works a treat and 9 times out of 10 I DO that - but it's the 1 time out of 10 that crops up a bit too regularly that worries me.

When I think of someone who can hold their patience in the face of a child's anger/unreasonableness/temper/outrageousness I always imagine a woman who is incredibly self-assured, savvy, confident and sorted ie. not me! I also envy the fact that they obviously had a brilliant relationship with their parents (or at least one of their parents)

MmeD: "he is uber sensitive and goes into complete meltdown if we are even a tiny bit harsh with him....part of his dyspraxia..."
Dyspraxia? Does he show any traits of Asperger's?

Why does everyone want to prove that pagwatch is either a bad parent or has an easier life? What is it about pagwatch that's pushing buttons? She's a lovely mum with a SN kid, and she's said that she does things she's not proud of. It's just that shouting isn't one of her parenting tools. When did shouting become the only measure for parenting brilliance?

I don't shout either (mind you, mine's only 20 months, ask me again later) but it doesn't mean I haven't snapped, got exasperated (I developed a low in-the-throat growl when she was tiny, that relieved my feelings without bothering her at all), but it's just that I'm not a loud person. It doesn't mean I have better anger management skills, or staff (WTF?) or am a perfect parent. It just means I don't like loud noises.

Katiestar, my Mum didn't shout at me either, and it's prepared me for the real world fine. Since nobody in the real world, bar wankers in cars, has ever felt the need to shout at me in my adult life.

Your second post came through after my initial response (confused emoticon) but made alot of sense (again) You seem very well-worded and perceptive in your replies to me and I appreciate it - have you experience in this type of thing (are you a therapist?)

Either way, thanks.

Alaska - late response re shoes: My children are quite little (2 and 4) and they are not rudely ignoring me so much as dawdling / playing / their attention gets caught on everything / their timescales are different to mine.

Me: DD will you please put your shoes on?
Her: Mmmm (I'll just finish dressing this barbie... where are barbie's shoes? Oooh look, my best bracelet... is that a crayon under there... hey, hello cat! I wonder if the cat would like to sit in the highchair...?)

Me: DD? Shoes!
Her: Yes! (Right... where did the cat go?... ... ...)

'its not smug. Honestly, do you think shouting at a 17 yo will acheive anything?'
Especially if you are looking up at them to yell.

I've always done Consequences, imaginative,personalised to the child consistent and final. Get a warning, get a second warning and then...
Bam!
Mine are older, like pag's and I've been a teacher longer than a parent, which helped me realise that, as Booboobedoo said
'The key for me was not taking kids' behaviour personally. They are behaving as they are for their own reasons - it's nothing to do with you most of the time.
That stops me getting wound up, and I stay in control.'

Katiestar, you sound mean and narrow-minded today. So pagwatch and I don't shout at our children, it's possible for us. Perhaps it's less about the size of our homes and more about temperament, selecting strategies using rational reasons and having a longer fuse for a reason. Parenting an sn child makes you think outside the box. And thick-skinned about snide and petty comments.

Katiestar,
do you want me to respond to your comments or were you just trying to be unpleasant?

If you genuinely believe, upon serious reflection, that my children were handed to me impeccably behaved aged 7 and over, that having a child with very severe SN does not constitute any stress, and that the size of the rooms in your house are the only difference between a happy life and misery, then I will do so.

Coldfield, your posts are quite hard to read but really honest and they resonate with me. I remember that massive frustration and misery when DS2 would be thrashing around and hurting himself and my response was so wrapped up in my realisation that I had just no control over this child. His reactions and emotions were literally incomprehensible to me and that feeling of powerlessness was so hard to deal with. I remember the feeling that if I could just act, just do something dramatic to get through to him. I shouted sometimes. Then I felt bad and couldn't believe that I had shouted at a child with such difficulties so I was tightly wound with him but shouted at his brother. That didn't feel any better tbh.
I think i just hated the way it made me feel - more out of control rather than more in charge. And I think I had to change it before it just became the way I reacted.

But I think for some people their shouting is just volume and doesn't impact their child. I think what you say and what you mean are more important than volume. I know a woman who tells her child in conversational tones that she wishes she would just go away and I find that harder to contemplate than the exasperated shouting of a loving affectionate parent.

Anyway, I am gibbering ... off to wander the halls of my mansion like the smug smuggerson I am

Tricky subject. Some people are calmer, some people are more hot-headed, whether through nature or nurture I don't know.

As kids we were terrified of the rage of both of our parents. So I try not to shout. But I rage at them inwardly, and it does build up, and is such a massive effort to squash the temper down again.

I wonder if people like me (extremely hot tempered) never learned properly how to regulate or express heightened emotion? That is how it feels - I can surely empathise when my toddler tantrums, or my older son (has autism) has a tantrum - I feel like that a lot of the time, they just are able to externalise it!

I have recently read Harvey Karp's Happiest Toddler book and found the techniques really, really useful, sounds similar to the "how to talk" stuff - listening, empathising etc.

at echoing halls...
at least when I talk to myself I get an answer of sorts.

Actually that isn't really a good idea is it?

'once you have started shouting you are no longer the adult'

I think thats unnecessarily harsh and will perpetuate the feelings of guilt of lots of mothers who do occasionally shout.

and [sigh]..if only

Actually I do occasionally walk all the way from the basement to my bedroom at the back of the house and then wail
"what the fuck did I come up here forrrrrrr !"

But that is menopausal stupidity rather than anything more serious.

How is DD doing Riv?

Coldfield, you have written down what I've been thinking for years. I'm a quiet person and won't say boo to a goose, not even my husband, but my kids see the full glory of my 'explosions' and I hate myself for it
My mum always took her frustrations out on me and when I was 12yrs old and the neighbour was being nasty to her, she (my mum) dragged me down the stairs by my hair because I had made too much noise and this had annoyed the neighbour.
I was scared of my mum and for years would flinch if she lifted an arm near me if I was sitting down.

Not scared anymore as she had dementia and can't even look after herself, but I get angry at her now for making my childhood full of "What is mum's mood today?"

'I think thats unnecessarily harsh and will perpetuate the feelings of guilt of lots of mothers who do occasionally shout.'

Have a look at what some of the shouters have raised as possible alternatives that we use...drugs, alcohol, living in the East Wing with the children in the West. Not shouting purely so we can be smug and superior about it
Or just plain lying.

I have to repeat commands to ds since he genuinely doesn't appear to remember - has problems with his visual sequential memory so struggles to remember instructions.

MaamRuby I like the poking with stick idea, so much quieter than shouting . My parenting tools are the same as yours!