to think its cruel and ridiculous to put cold water on a 3 week old to try and keep her awake....

[inhirsuteofhappiness]

Friends of mine have a 3 week old baby. They have read a certain book (!) and are trying to get their 3 week old newborn baby to follow the routine. She is only allowed to sleep at certain times during the day so when she starts to fall asleep when she's not supposed to, they strip her off and drop cold water on to her to keep her awake They won't cuddle her just in case she falls asleep when she's not supposed to and when it is nap time, she has to go upstairs to her cot.

I just think they are missing out on so much I found the newborn stage really really difficult but getting newborn snuggles was one of the things that made it bearable.

They did the same thing with their first dc and, whilst it did work (they slept through from 8 weeks), I just think its a huge price to pay.

They are good friends and I would never say anything to them. I know its none of my business. It still makes me sad and amazes me that some people are willing to pay such a high price for a decent night's sleep ...

where did i mention GF?

Craziness. Get a puppy if you want something to train!

YANBU!

However, they may well be doing what they think best. IMO the problem is that there are loads of books and professionals trying to peddle a one size fits all way of doing things and finding more and more horrific ways to force non-conforming little darlings into it.

My first child wanted feeds every 2 hours up to a year old and refused to go down afterwards unless he fell asleep on me. Only way we could survive it was to take him in bed with us. I felt desparately guilty about this til my MIL said that I should follow my instincts, then I just got on with it and he is now a happy three year old who sleeps 7 'til 7 and loves bedtimes (also skinny as a rake and very healthy and only eats at mealtimes).

My second child never wanted to be in bed with us, and slept 5 hours straight minimum from day 1.

I doubt their instincts lead them to do what they are doing but the book has probably pursuaded them they have to.

Maybe try a gentle chat, like the one my MIL had with me.

Are you sure it's just to establish the routine for the sake of the routine? My DD would fall asleep feeding and I needed to wake her up -- she had a hard time regaining birthweight. It broke my heart but if I couldn't wake her by brushing her cheek, diaper change, etc., I would put a damp washcloth on her forehead to get her to start feeding again. By 2 weeks or so everything was OK and I didn't have to do it much.

reading your OP has made me feel quite sick

lolapoppins it is your business. 'its takes a village to raise a child' and you are linked to this baby. these idiot friends of yours clearly have a defunct emotional chip.
if i was you hirsute id tell them straight and point them to this thread. i told a friend the other day that i was shocked at how her brother and sister in law disrespected and belittled their children in public. i couldn't not do so. and guess what shes still my friend and maybe i can make a difference. maybe they need the guidance you are capable of providing.
get some balls on you and chuck some cold water in their faces to wake THEM up -the baby is suffering.

sorry lola i meant i think IT IS hirsutes business... sorry im so cross i typed too fast.

Give them a copy of this www.amazon.co.uk/How-Not-F-Them-Up/dp/0091923913/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1280318914&sr =8-1 as a present. There is quite a lot of stuff about how certain methods for routines cause long term issues, but more importantly there are tips for routine-liking parents on how to establish organisation without harming their child's development.

There is no book on the market which suggests putting cold water on a 3 week old baby.

Your friends have to take responsibility on this one.

these are the sort of children who end up with insecure attachment and develop varying emotional difficulties as children, teenagers and adults.

We all pay a price for it in society.

I have avoided reading this thread because just the topic puts me off so if this link hasn't been on before print it off and drop it through their letterbox.

yesterday's Telegraph

Its hard to watch we had some friends who parented along these lines. Their 3 week old was handed to DH because when he was held by mum he wanted a feed and it wasn't "the right time" . The tiny baby was rooting and mewling for food but the parents just shook their heads and tapped their watches. DH is alot less polite than the me (and the OP) and told them that he didnt think their newborn had read the same book as them and needed feeding right now.

The fact that the "d"h rang up his wife to find out if she was cuddling the baby is frankly disturbing imo.

Look at all these people who think this treatment is shocking - I think you should show them this thread OP. Or at the very least talk to them gently about how important love and sleep are for the development of the baby's brain.

It's not abuse or torture to drip cold water on a newborn baby to keep them awake, or else I'm a torturer of dd1.

I did my torturing when she was days old at the insistence of a midwife who wanted to make sure she fed every 3 hours.

Big fat dd2 slept for hours at a time and I was left alone (and so was she) but I learnt the water dripping thing (and dipping the feet in water) in hospital and was told it was for my baby's good.

Seriously if you are the sort if person who would involve social services in something like this you should wear a badge so the rest of us can avoid thinking of you as a friend.

skidoodly, it matters very much that the reasons the parents are wetting this baby is for the baby to fit into their chosen routine. very unlike your own case.

fwiw, there are more humane ways of waking a sleepy baby so that they can feed often enough. Wetting the baby is not evil in your scenario but it isn't best practice either. Midwives need to know more up to date and effective techniques.

Actually ime there is no way (humane or not) of waking a newborn that really wants to sleep.

I disagree that the motivation matters actually when it comes to calling something cruel or likening it to torture.

The self-congratulatory scapegoating and hysteria on this thread has become a real Mumsnet hallmark.

It's embarrassing.

"Oh poor me, I'm so sensitive and caring that I'm crying about this poor baby who doesn't have someone as brilliant as me as a parent."

ok. you win skidoodly.

Foxytocin, as you say it matters what these parents have on their mind in general- the context of what they're doing & why & how etc.

I find it, frankly, quite simplistic & bit silly to talk about 'abuse' and parents who are not looking after their child & not caring for their baby & not showing their baby love (there's even a link to a telegraph article in this thread regarding the need babies have for affectionate care). It's impossible to know beforehand what 'showing affection' means, before we look at the context of each family. For all I know, as much as I personally dislike the idea of throwing drops of water on baby to keep them away, the particular family showers their DCs with love in all other ways. Who am I to say this or that behaviour is evidence of not showing affection? Also: not showing affection (or not showering children with affection) is NOT the same thing as abuse, the terms have their meaning & it's important to stick to those meanings otherwise we risk losing any sense of proportion about what abuse actually means.

I have to say this thread deals with the whole thing very simplistically. I don't think it's a solution to anything to find enemies who we can conveniently hate & feel better parents ourselves (in this case 'parents who follow routines' who- in the imagination of many posters- do so with complete disregard of their parents' needs, or, of course, routine books which after all one can take or leave, pick bits they like & discard others). Things are rarely so black & white as presented in this thread.

To reiterate: I do feel it's useless & not nice & misguided etc to drop water on a newborn (just making myself clear). But I'd need much much MUCH more info on any particular family to be able to judge (and even then I would be very careful in judging).

(keep them awake, obviously...)

oh for god's sake MN really really needs an editing thingie!!! Meant disregard of children's needs....sorry if I've confused everyone!

Oh, and by the way: it might be best if everyone on this thread decides whether it's the act of dropping water on the baby which is abusive (regardless of thoughts of parents, context etc) OR whether in fact it is exactly the aims of parents who have this behaviour that matters (ie the context).

If it's the second, I don't see how all these comparisons to torture etc are of any relevance. As many MNetters have told us, they too kept their newborns awake, sometimes with water, to feed them.

I always wonder in similar threads that turn a bit hysterical (eg those about controlled crying). Is it the excessive crying (or in this case water dropping) that creates the 'brain damage / emotional damage / cortisol-increase' (which people assume it causes)? In which case I don't see why any persistent crying (eg due to colic) or any water dropping (eg in order to feed) isn't harmful. So what is it people? the behaviour or the whole context? If the second, as I said, lets just forget about the water dropping shall we? We really really don't know exactly what was on the minds of these parents.

how many on here would like to fit into my routine? I'll happily wet you with cold water to keep you awake. Not to feed you btw, just so that you can go to bed at the same time I do. As long as you only use the gross motor skills of a newborn to make me stop.

Well said Maria.

I've been thinking of a good tabloid headline for my own experiences

NHS Midwives Watched While Mum Tortured Baby

or

Evil Torture Nurses Corrupt New Mums

It may not be best practise, and to be honest, I was quite about it myself at the time, but really, people are being advised to do this very thing by healthcare professionals. How can anyone claim that it is abusive in and of itself?

If it's only the intention to wake for routine that makes it abusive, then the claim is that trying to follow a routine is cruel and that's a pretty big claim in itself.