to think its cruel and ridiculous to put cold water on a 3 week old to try and keep her awake....

[inhirsuteofhappiness]

Friends of mine have a 3 week old baby. They have read a certain book (!) and are trying to get their 3 week old newborn baby to follow the routine. She is only allowed to sleep at certain times during the day so when she starts to fall asleep when she's not supposed to, they strip her off and drop cold water on to her to keep her awake They won't cuddle her just in case she falls asleep when she's not supposed to and when it is nap time, she has to go upstairs to her cot.

I just think they are missing out on so much I found the newborn stage really really difficult but getting newborn snuggles was one of the things that made it bearable.

They did the same thing with their first dc and, whilst it did work (they slept through from 8 weeks), I just think its a huge price to pay.

They are good friends and I would never say anything to them. I know its none of my business. It still makes me sad and amazes me that some people are willing to pay such a high price for a decent night's sleep ...

I'm with ShineOn.

Cool water on a cotton wool ball is not, repeat not, cruelty, abuse or torture. Choosing not to snuzzle your baby to sleep at certain times is not a criminal act.

Getting a three week old into sleeping patterns may not be your personal parenting choice but it's not something that should have you foaming at the mouth and calling SS. You may think newborn cuddles are the bestest thing ever but there are people who don't feel that way, and they're not monsters.

MIL disagreed with our choice to steer our dds towards sleeping at roughly arranged times. She didn't much like it when we tickled and generally prodded them to keep them awake. She huffed quite a bit when asked to refrain from snuggling the babes to sleep when we would quite like for them to stay awake a bit longer. She nearly lost the plot when we bundled her off into the pram for a walk around town in the buggy at night to get her off to sleep. I don't think she considered reporting us to SS or calling the police though.

And to all the people crying torture at keeping a child awake for a bit, don't forget to yell at all the parents who play music, tell stories, wind down the windows etc to keep their kids awake in the car when it's not a great time for them to have a sleep.

For the record, we have lovely happy contented gorgeous children. No bonding issues, no fear and hatred, no trust problems, no conrol freakery. So there.

Totally cruel and ridiculous to keep a newborn awake in this way when it needs to sleep. In doing this they are failing to respond to one of their baby's most basic needs. Poor baby.

zeno, the trouble is that if there are any issues with children, they often don't show up til much later, when they are much older. The children may appear happy and secure, but children have a mechanism whereby they supress difficult and painful emotions as they do not have the capacity to process them when young. They therefore can appear to be pefectly happy and well adjusted. However, these emotions, if they remain unprocessed, can cause lots of problems as the child gets older and into adulthood. This is a generalisation and does not apply to all cases, but it certainly holds true in many cases of children who were mistreated in childhood.

zeno, if a five year old went to school and told the teacher that his parents stripped him and dripped cold water on him to keep him awake, the teacher would have to inform the CP officer who would have to inform social services. If they did not do so, they would be professionally negligent.

At no point would any mouth contain any foam.

didn't they use sleep deprivation as a form of torture during the Salem witch trials? Kept the accused awake for days on end and walked them up and down, over and over until they confessed.

What kind of book encourages, hell, suggests treating your child like this, let alone a newborn baby?! I loved cuddling my daughter hours when she was newborn, once sat on the sofa with her for 3 hours straight while she slept in my arms snoring her head off, twas magic

Zeno, I'm the first to confess to going "lalalalalala!!!!" at my DD when she tries to sleep at 4pm to keep her awake but I'd never have done that when she was a newborn!

But then I wasn't in a major hurry to get her into a routine. I guess you make a good point though. We all have our own priorities with our newborn babies- some want structured routines straight away, others don't.

I do agree that calling SS about this might be a little bit OTT but I still think it's OTT to be so strict a bout a newborn baby's sleep pattern.

Rockbird - I too am confused I do think what they are doing is ridiculous, unnecessary and cruel. I have also known them for 20 years and know that they are not "bad" people.

The reason for using the method they are using (i.e. to get a better night's sleep) is selfish imo but the actual method (i.e. putting cold water on) is something that is recommended for keeping a baby awake, albeit for "proper" reasons to enable them to take feeds. I don't feel I'm explaining myself very well but, if for instance, they were pinching/sticking pins in the baby (heaven forbid !), then it would be obvious that they were being abusive and I would have no hesitation in taking action. They are not doing that (and wouldn't in a million years).

They are misguided, selfish, control freaks and unconfident in their parenting abilities. They parent differently to me, albeit my dc's do have a routine. I just think they are doing too early and being too extreme about it

Do I think they are great parents ?? No. Do I perhaps think they are too selfish and have expectations which mean they have been better off not having children ? Yes, I think I do. Do I think they are vile child abusers ? No, I do not

I am actually feeling sleep deprived myself right now, had a very late night last night and was up early this morning. I feel awful, but I know why and I know I will catch up on sleep tonight. The poor little 3 week old baby will just feel dreadful but have no idea why. That is just so cruel. And the parents should read "Why Love Matters" (sorry forget author please google if interested) about how a lack of cuddling and affection in babyhood/childhood can affect the normal development of a child's brain.

Actually, I think it is cruel to force a three week old to stay awake.

Cold water although my DD was a very sleepy feeder and I had to take off her clothes or she'd fall asleep 3 mins into start of each feed. For the first 3 weeks wanted to sleep the whole time so feeding was very hard.

I do like routine though and DS2 slept through night at 8 weeks, feed him as often as possible (2.5-3 hourly) during day. But not as rigid as all that. I did put him to sleep though in his cot and he learned to settle himself pretty quickly. I learnt the hard way with DD that feeding to sleep is not a good way to go (unlesss you want to do this every time they stir in the night)

so I have some sympathy and its not abuse.

I realise that dittany - I was just using it as an example for Rockbird as to why it seemed I was backtracking.

tether we're not discussing five year-olds - well, I'm not anyway. If you think about it there are a lot of things we do with babies that aren't normal when applied to older children.

ABit I think you should win a prize for being the first one to imply that I have, of course, mistreated my children and damaged them. Well done for not beating about the bush.
Bear in mind that a lack of cuddling and affection to the degree that causes developmental problems in the brain means no cuddles at all. Please try and get a sense of proportion here.

MumNWLondon - I agree with you totally, and treated my DCs exactly as you describe.

The water thing does seem very OTT and not something I would approve of or do myself. However, the horror that is often displayed on MN when someone admits that their newborn sleeps in a cot, or doesn't get fed to sleep, or isn't held/'worn' 24/7, is also totally OTT IMHO!

So op - what everyone wants to know is.... what are you going to do about the 3 week old baby?

Are you going to give the parents a copy of the book?

Zeno I have never yelled at a child or wound the windows down or played loud music to a child that was going to nod off . If a child is dropping off to sleep I would assume that they need the sleep at that particular time.

undercovamutha, we're not talking about any of those issues. We're talking about a 21 day old infant being prodded awake because it doesn't fit in with the grown ups' idea of a good night.

I agree with Dittany; his behaviour is very concerning.

Poor baby

Rockbird - OP says 'when it is nap time, she has to go upstairs to her cot'. Why is this a bad thing?

And btw, I regularly use all the tricks in the book to keep my DS awake in the car on the way back from nursery. If he falls asleep in the car 1 minute away from home, he wakes up as soon as I get him out of the car and he thinks he's had his sleep for the day. He then ends up having 1 minute sleep all day, and is upset and unhappy for the rest of the day. I'm sure you would find this preferable to rolling down the window or singing loudly to get him to stay awake for 1 minute.

This makes me feel desperately sad for the baby. What the hell is wrong with some people?

I am really very interested if the Op still thinks that the parents have been cruel and ridiculous...what kind of father rings up a mum and says... hey do not cuddle your new born?

I think the op has to do something.. it is not normal to poor cold water on a new baby as a way to stop the baby from sleeping.

I have no problem at all with the baby sleeping in the cot. God knows if I had been stricter on that score DD wouldn't still be in our bed!

Rockbird you may not do those things but there's no call to be sceptical - lots and lots of parents do keep their children awake at strategic times.
And, for the record, the hypothetical yelling was at parents, not children.

snowdropz there has been no pouring of cold water; the OP describes them as putting cotton wool balls into cool water and using them - like using a damp flannel. MN chinese whispers.