Continuing support group for those affected by someone else's drinking

[pointythings]

Our current thread is nearly full, and it's too valuable to lose in the mists of time, so this is thread 2. Come here if you are struggling with a loved one's drinking - partner, parent, child, friend, there's support for you here no matter which person in your life is struggling with the drink and having an adverse impact on you. The women on here have all been there or are still going through it. We support and advise each other, we don't judge, we listen.

Original thread here to refer back to: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/alcohol_support/4581221-support-group-for-those-affected-by-someone-elses-drinking

Thank you, pointy things. She actually is being prescribed thiamine already. Do you think maybe she already could have wernicke korskoff? Or is it sometimes prescribed as a preventative?

With that level of intake, a thiamine prescription is a sensible precaution. But those early dementia signs absolutely could be the onset of Wernicke-Korsakoff. Equally they could be Alzheimer's or vascular dementia. Only full assessment would give a clearer picture.

My mother was an obvious case; she had the classic signs of disorientation in time, place and person alongside good verbal fluency but with extremes of confabulation to cover the enormous holes in her memory. She was 4 days off being assessed for sectioning (and would have been) when she fell down the stairs in her house and broke her neck. She would have been going to get a slug of the vodka she had in the fridge to top up her alcohol level. Dsis and I told her to just keep the bottle by her bed, but she couldn't do that because it would have broken the denial.

@Swoosh80 I am in a similar position with my late 70s mother, although she is widowed, and her drink of choice is vodka. She gets through nearly a litre a day, then occasionally (after we have had one of our little chats where I tell her I’m taking her car off her if she doesn’t stop) she goes weeks at a time without drinking.

I recognise what you are saying about how completely puzzling it is that she’s functioning as well as she is with that level of intake. My mother told me she drinks in the morning to add an extra level of challenge when she does Wordle and the crossword on her phone.

Sometimes even when I can tell she’s been drinking she is so sharp and on it and cheerful. Other times she’s dribbling soup down her front and unable to sit up straight in her chair, slurring her words and repeating herself.

This was all a very recent discovery for me too - just after we moved to live next door to her 😱 Total fucking nightmare to be honest.

It is so hard not knowing what’s caused by alcohol and what’s caused by cognitive decline.

It is helpful to me (if deeply, deeply sad) to know that I have done what I can and the choice needs to be hers to get help or change.

I am sorry you find yourself in this position too. The shock of it takes a long time to processs.

@pointythings I am so sorry to hear this about your mother. What an awful end. I fear this sort of accident for my mother every day.

It was horrific. It was also completely expected due to the nature and layout of the house. My DSis and I discussed how likely it was that things would end thaty way two years before it did.

The worst thing? She had a stair lift. She could have used it to go downstairs and get her fix. But the neigbours would have heard, and they would have worked it out and so she didn't do that either.

@pointythings so sad, I’m so sorry. Just shows you that the shame and denial associated with alcoholism can kill 😢

Oh this does sound similar. It is so bewildering to find ourselves in this situation. I am feeling a bit scared how it will play out. I don’t hold much hope for her giving up completely. Best we could hope for is a reduction

My sister was an alcoholic and died of liver failure at 38. I don't think my parents handled it well at all, we're constantly in denial and never enforced boundaries around alcohol when she lived with them or supporter her in going to AlAnon or other support meetings. I think doing so would have meant them facing up to their own dysfunctional relationship with alcohol.

Since Dsis died (and probably before, I just didn't notice), every time I see them they have some story (sometimes more than one) which involves them drinking alcohol, usually to excess and / or when there is no 'need' for it (eg they went to Morrisons rather than Sainsbury's this week and got a nice bottle of wine which they shared between them the night before a big social night out at the pub). Often the story itself isn't about them getting ridiculously drunk, but alcohol is ever-present in their lives. Given that Dsis died of liver failure due to drinking, I don't understand why they can't see the damage they are doing to themselves.

We were at a family party last weekend and DM fell over drunk because of how much she had been drinking. She's 72 and already has some mobility issues and I worry she could do serious damage next time. Dad had also drunk a lot and wasn't sympathetic to her, said she was making a spectacle and 'never knows when to stop'. Clearly this has happened before and he is 'right' that she doesn't know when to stop, but there was no compassion there. Neither has he tried to do anything about her drinking or encourage her to seek help (his drinking usually causes him to be rude and act selfishly rather than cause physical issues or act dangerously). I ended up having to support DM to the where the taxi would be and literally hold her upright while we waited. Her legs kept shaking and she would have fallen again without me there. Dad did nothing other than vaguely holding her hand for a few minutes and didn't seem concerned.

I already watched Dsis slip away from me even before she died. I am probably catastrophising, but I keep seeing it play out in my head that DM will die a horrible death from liver disease as their marriage becomes miserable and then he can't cope so goes the same way himself.

Sorry it's so long, I just had to get it all out and wondered if anyone else had felt the same...

@CinderBlockandCustardhello! I’m sure somebody else will be along with better advice than I can offer soon however I can somewhat understand. Sorry about your sister, that must have been traumatic. My dad is an alcoholic and I catastrophise often about what will happen and how much strain it places on my mum. Your head can take you to dark places and it is nice to know that you’re not alone.

I have actually just started counselling to try and unpack some of the feelings that I’ve kept in for years which is a scary thought but I hope it helps. My dad is actually on his own just now as my mum is away and I have been visiting, taking him out etc. I strongly suspect that he has been drinking today but I’m trying not to worry about it, have taken my little boy to the park and am going to have a cosy night with my fire on and some good telly. I can’t spend my life worrying, they make their own choices and I’m a bit sick of being the parent in the relationship.

Thanks @eyeofthestorm1. It is nice to not feel alone ( I have a supportive partner but he doesn't really know what to do. He has no experience with alcoholism and gets annoyed with the problems it causes). I really do appreciate you saying what you did and I'm sorry you are going through it too.

I know there is nothing I can do until they admit there's a problem, but I will have to deal with the fallout if / when they develop major health problems. I try to distract myself with other things but it's difficult. I tried to tell myself that if they need alot of personal care and help in the future because of this that I should be strong enough to protect myself and my own family life , not sacrifice my own family life to deal with their problems if they won't face up to the cause - I will set boundaries but it will be hard and involve alot of biting my lip.

@CinderBlockandCustard It’s blood hard. My dad does have health problems and was in hospital for two months at the start of this year, it was awful but it hasn’t deterred him for any length of time. It can be slightly easier for me to distance myself when he is drunk because he is quite nasty to be around. When he is sober, I just want him to be a dad but it never lasts.

@CinderBlockandCustard I would absolutely recommend seeking some support for yourself, because watching someone on autodestruct is the hardest thing.

However, you do not have to take on the care of your parents when their life choices start hitting their health. You do not owe them that. They can apply for social care support just like other people who don't have relatives nearby.

You also do not have to be around them when they are drunk. You can tell them, calmly and politely at a time when they are sober, that you are worried about their alcohol use and that you will no longer be in their presence when they are drunk. You are entitled to set that boundary. It is entirely up to you to decide how much or how little chaos your parents are allowed to inflict on your life.

If this sounds harsh, that is because it is. Sometimes harsh is the only way you can hang on to your sanity - it's what Dsis and I had to do with our mum.

Thanks I've saved that advice for later!

I haven’t been able to take my own advice and have tossed and turned all night worrying, him drinking is the first thing I think of when I wake up and the last thing at night. Bloody nightmare.

@eyeofthestorm1 We have all been there. Things that helped me when I couldn't sleep for worrying at night were listening to podcasts, reading a book, -whatever helped me focus on something else. The time I spent worrying about my DH's drinking was time wasted. It was bad for my mental health and it made no difference at all to the outcome for him.

@eyeofthestorm1 we have definitely all been there. I don't recall losing much sleep over my late husband, but every time I found out my mum had had another drunk fall at home, there it was - insomnia. We can't turn off worrying for the people we love, all we can hope for is that it will eventually wear off.

I had my second counselling session today and feel a bit calmer. He is encouraging me to do things that ‘serve me well’ and isn’t advising as such but helping me think hard about which of my choices cause me stress, anger etc and what brings peace to my life.

Me again.
Ex DP asked me if he could take DD (age 2) out for lunch on Saturday while I worked.
I allowed it because his other DD (almost 18) was also going to be there.
An hour into my shift, I get a call from his DD - he’s drunk. In a restaurant just across from where I work.
Thankfully, she had already had the sense to call her grandparents (his parents) who live nearby, they came and collected them both, then picked me up from work when my shift ended to take DD and I home.
I have told him now that he won’t be taking DD anywhere even with his older DD present. She shouldn’t have had to be put in the position to be responsible for the safety of her little sister while her father was drunk.
I am beyond mortified and so, so angry.
He has yet again been bombarding me with emails, making excuses that he had drank the night before, woken up still drunk the next morning, and thought it would be ok to have one pint to make him feel better.
Saying it was bad judgement on his part and that he should of cancelled - but he didn’t.
Yet is still trying to guilt trip me into feeling like the unreasonable one for not trusting him (“just because I’ve messed up in the past doesn’t mean I’ll keep messing up”)
It actually infuriates me that he refers to something that happened only 4 days ago as the past. Baring in mind, two weeks prior to that, he snuck vodka into my home while visiting DD and proceeded to get drunk then aswell. Which resulted in me not allowing him to come into the house to visit her anymore.

Oh @MamaBear81 how awful.

I’m not sure what advice to offer, but if I were you I would not allow my DD to see him for the foreseeable unsupervised, she’s way too little to be able to keep herself safe in the event her dad gets drunk and can’t look after her. Do you have court ordered access arrangements? (Sorry if you’ve explained this before).

I would also be furious with all the minimizing and manipulation and would be tempted to shout “this is not in the past, this was THIS WEEK”!! But best just grey rock or have some stock standard response to every message like “please listen to yourself”. When I was tempted to rise to the bait I use to imagine my text messages being read by a judge or the police. That usually encouraged me to take the higher ground.

I have been through similar when my ex started using and drinking again (though in reality he probably never stopped and hid it well). I actually took legal advice as thought I would have to go to court to reduce his access to my terms (we had nothing court ordered in place) but to my relief I was told that it was on him to take ME to court if he disagreed with my new access “rules” and I was perfectly justified and allowed to make them. Of course, he didn’t ….

@Addictforanex

No, there’s no court order.
He’s never been left completely alone with her since the day she was born.
I was just stupid and naive enough to think he wouldn’t drink if his older DD was present aswell, when he knows how much she hates being around him drunk.
But of course, I should of known his need for a drink would take priority over anything else.
Usually either his parents or myself supervise his contact with DD. But it’s got to the point now where I don’t want to supervise it myself anymore because every time I see him, he uses it as an opportunity to try and guilt trip me into taking him back. I’m sick of it.
Then when he doesn’t get what he wants, he becomes verbally abusive towards me in front of our DD.
When we lived together, he was drinking probably once a week, but when he started, it would continue for days. Chaos would be caused, then when he sobered up he would be full of false apologies and promises about how it wouldn’t happen again etc.. it always did though.
Now we are separated and living apart, he is adamant that his drinking has improved -
it’s about once a fortnight instead of every week, but will still continue for days at a time, and be just as chaotic.
A few weeks ago, he lost a job on his first day for turning up drunk. He has snuck vodka into my home, so I’ve banned him from coming.
And now he’s got drunk while in charge of our DD, in public, which is actually a criminal offence. But still he comes with the excuses and the false promises of how it won’t happen again (same thing I’ve heard hundreds of times before) .. and claims of how he’s on the right path to recovery.
He says my lack of trust is down to my own insecurities. Narcissist. He fails to acknowledge my insecurities have been caused by his actions - the constant lying, sneaking around, the sob stories that follow each incident, then when those don’t work, the justification that “having a drink is not a crime” and I’m the one being selfish and unfair for judging him for his illness.
Is he even actually an alcoholic??
In the past, he’s been out for meals/days out with DD and I, and not drank. Opted for 0%..
So if he can do that when I’m there watching him, why doesn’t he do the same when I’m not? I’m at the point now where I feel his drinking is a choice. He takes medication that is supposed to stop cravings etc, goes to counselling.. but I’m starting to think it’s all a front he’s putting on, to make people believe he actually wants to stop so that they’ll feel sorry for him and still be there after every time he “makes a mistake” as he calls it.
A mistake is something you learn from and don’t repeat. Not something that happens every week or two, when he isn’t being babysat by me.

He is an alcoholic because his alcohol use is utterly dysfunctional. If you were to fill in the AUDIT questionnaire as if you were him, he would be in the highest risk category. So don't beat yourself up or doubt yourself.

Learn to grey rock him when he comes out with his manipulative addict bullshit. He won't stop, he won't change and you know what he's doing, so learn to let it slide off.

And yes to zero unsupervised contact and protecting yourself. You are 100% justified in putting in those boundaries. Let this be it: you and your DD first, him last. Use that anger to help yourself.

@MamaBear81 . I’m so sorry you have all this to deal with, but you have made progress. You separated, you stopped him seeing your child in your house. Now it’s time to stop supervising the contact, because he abuses you in front of your tiny child. You are right that being drunk in charge of a child is a criminal offence. I would have called the police. You aren’t responsible for him. In your position, I would end all meetings and communication with him. I would bend over backwards to keep a good relationship with the wider family. I would offer set times when his parents can have your child, it sounds like you sometimes work at weekends so this can also benefit you. He can be there, or not , but must be sober. I would stress to them that I know they love him but they can not allow contact to continue if he has been drinking or if he is badmouthing you or being mawkish and sorry for himself with your little one, because she is the important person here, and none of that behaviour is good for her. If they can agree these terms, she should be safe. If they can’t, or if there are continuing difficulties, you may need to stop his contact, I agree with others that he is unlikely to stir himself to go to court, but keep every text message , so you can prove everything.

Sorry to double post but the crucial thing here is to tell the Grandparents that you are facilitating their contact with their Grandchild, and you trust them to protect
her. I don’t think you were married, but if the father has PR, he could override this, and legally remove her. In that case, daunting as it is, it may be better to go to Court so you can keep her safe. My understanding is that he hasn’t ever tried to see her unsupervised, and that he does acknowledge his issue with alcohol, so you may feel that is a low risk .

@Zebracat
I very much trust his parents. They won’t have him in their house if he’s been drinking. His own mother has given me a pep talk on how she doesn’t think he will ever change, doesn’t think he really wants to, and that I’m much better off without him. She’s even said she wouldn’t blame me at all if I stopped him seeing DD completely. I would like to avoid doing that if I can, as DD adores him and I feel I would be punishing her by denying her the right to see her father under supervision, while sober.
A court order is something I’ve thought about so many times, but I’ve always been afraid to do it.. because I know how well he can turn on the charm when he’s sober, he’s like a totally different person. I’m terrified he would be able to manipulate the judge into believing I’m exaggerating everything and get granted unsupervised contact.
Regarding him acknowledging his alcohol issues, it changes all the time.
One week he will say he is an alcoholic and has no control over his drinking.
The next, he says he isn’t and downplays it all because he only drinks once a fortnight.
But as @pointythings said, If he wasn’t an alcoholic, then surely he would be able to just not drink, knowing how many jobs it has lost him etc alongside many other negative affects it has had, and continues to have on not only him, but the people who care about him also.
He goes to our local community drug and alcohol team, was prescribed disulfrum (Antabuse, which can be extremely dangerous if alcohol is consumed while taking it) .. he drank on that, multiple times, to the point they refused to renew his prescription because he was putting himself in danger repeatedly drinking on it.
They changed to Acomprosat, which is supposed to diminish the cravings, and block endorphins so the user doesn’t get the enjoyable high from alcohol. That doesn’t work for him either.
A few years ago, his parents paid for him to have hypnotherapy. Didn’t work.
Of course he’s an alcoholic, I don’t know why I even questioned it in my previous post.
But would I be able to get the court to believe that if I needed to?
Because he will deny it to them. And I know he will abstain from alcohol in the days leading up to it, just to show that he can, and convince them that he is capable of not drinking when he chooses not to.
Which is why I don’t understand why he doesn’t just do that in normal day to day life.
Whu would he get drunk while out for a meal with his DD’s, if he can go without drinking when he chooses to?
Why would he spend months looking for a new job (after losing the last one, and every other job he’s had).. then get drunk on his way there, at 6am, on his first day.. and lose that one too? None of it makes any sense.
This is what is making me, and his family, think he doesn’t actually want to change.

@MamaBear81 He is most definitely an alcoholic. Don't spend another second angsting about why/how often he drinks. It's not your problem and you'll drive yourself crazy trying to make sense of something that makes no sense at all.
All you need to focus on is keeping your little girl safe. If you want him to be able to see her, best to be at the grandparents' house and if he isn't sober, he doesn't see her. As for the court order, it doesn't have to be just your word against his. His own parents and older daughter are aware that he isn't able to parent safely.