Relations between China and the UK

Nice.

How it works is since you made the claim, you provide the citation that led this "understanding"...

@LittleFingerStrength Sorry but what is it, aliens? Hormones?WW3? Train accidents in Ohio? Pesky Iranian migrants in boats infiltrating to start a war?

Other posters aren’t bullying you, they’re pointing out inconsistencies and scare mongering.

I'm trying to understand this post, OP.

If I understand correctly, are you saying that the left is authoritative when it comes to things that matter according to left wing ideas and principals?

But if China took over a Western city they would be equally authoritative except stamp out lefty lifestyles eg gay marriage etc?

Are you saying they are both intolerant of other people?....Or have I got the wrong end of the stick.

That's exactly what they're saying. And they're right. The left (those everyone calls woke) are extremely intolerant of others beliefs and just as authoritarian as the right wing and probably akin to left wing fascists. Communism is the extreme left. China is a communist state.

Be careful what you wish for.

It is a position of privilege to be able to speak so freely about any subject you want to talk about and to challenge the status quo.

You can't do that in China.

Yet so many on the left here idolise communism and want us to embrace it without truly understanding the history of it.

This thread is a bit crazy tbh. I haven't seen anyone idolising communism on this thread - recognizing the reality of the power and influence of modern China and its importance in the world and how that impacts on us all is no bad thing. Their political structure won't be changing anytime soon - the grip on power that the CCP has it total. They saw the collapse of the Soviet Union and the destruction of the state and rise of oligarchism as something to be rightly feared. It is estimated that the around 70% of it's population broadly supports the state and the CCP social contract is to provide a state that supports that inherent majority and ruthlessly suppresses those that would even dare to question that authority.

The membership of the CCP is around 90 million - only the most dedicated and best of the cadres get membership and that membership is critical to getting positions in authority, government or business. If you lived there many of us on here would be wishing that our children could pass the exams and the hurdles to get to that position. I suspect very few would be dissident forces whether through fear or more probably wishing to conform to the cultural norm and gained power, influence and authority through that.

Accepting the reality of this geopolitical situation is what Nixon and Kissinger grasped all those years ago when China had been a proxy adversary in Korea and Vietnam and had killed 10s of millions in the Cultural Revolution. China is light years more progressive than that now and if we make them our enemy then we will probably damage ourselves more that we damage them.

As ever when I want to understand the complexities of the situation Professor Chomsky still alert and active at 94 has something relevant to say. What we are experiencing now is the sun setting on the US primacy of the late 20th century, and it's global 'Empire' and force and the rise of a multipolar world. World peace will depend on accepting that reality ultimately by all parties and attempting to live in peaceful coexistence, or we will perish as a species. By far the biggest threat facing us all is catastrophic climate change and war can only divert us from the urgency of that, let’s hope our leaders have signed up to that for all our sakes.

Oh, and China certainly isn't communist authoritarian state capitalist would be a more apt description and has been for decades. When I was growing up Nixon going to China was almost unbelievable. His doctrine rings ever true today.

This thread is a bit crazy tbh. I haven't seen anyone idolising communism on this thread

I didn't say they did. "Here" means the UK

Oh, and China certainly isn't communist authoritarian state capitalist would be a more apt description and has been for decades.

Treneton do you think China is more fascist than communist?

Xi is exhibiting all the characteristics of fascism it must be said. I would have to look up the textbook definition. He has assumed total power and authority. If we wanted to be benign we could call him Emporer as he is little different from Chinese emprorers of yore and does indeed live within the walls of the Palace.

That’s very interesting.
I’m sure Xi is smart enough to know that if China describes itself as Communist (even though, as you say, it’s not) it will be tolerated by most of the rest of the world far more than if there’s any mention of fascist.

Where we pull out we leave a vacuum that China is only too happy to fill. We are exceptionally short sighted.

That is true, EggBlanket, but imagine if UK had lent large sums of money for infrastructure etc. to other countries and then requisitioned it when the countries couldn’t pay it back - as China has done in Sri Lanka and elsewhere.
All hell would break loose and UK would be condemned across the world as modern day colonialists.

The inexorable logic is if you borrow money then you need to pay it back or offer up collateral to the lender. You don't own your house until the mortgage is finally paid off. Sadly western powers have taken their eye off the ball about future long term planning which is something the Chinese excel at and the salient fact that the Chinese cut a deal with whoever is in power without caring about human rights or despotic leaders gives them the edge.

The vast mineral and hydrocarbon wealth of Russia must be hugely tempting to China where western markets are effectively closed and India is almost joyous at being able to back both Russia and the west as it is seen as a democratic bulwark against China. The west needs to pivot away from the authoritarian world but in a way that doesn't threaten the stability of nations and that needs wise leaders with patience and diplomatic skills that just don't seem to be there.

And the rich need to share more of their wealth with the masses to preserve the institutions and civilization that we have created through great struggle throughout the centuries - rich men playing with rockets as the ultimate symbol of power and wealth isn't a good look when ordinary folk are struggling in ever greater numbers to feed and house their families. If these things don't happen then societies can and will collapse and this is the post pandemic world which has battered the world in so many ways, none of them good.

Sadly Xi may use Taiwan as his defining moment of his power in the near future is his rule falters on the economic front. One can only hope and pray he does not. If he did then I really would be scared and all bets would be off.

We are cursed to live in interesting times. There are very different views of the world order depending on which lens you view the world through. This video from an Indian activist at COP26 forcefully puts the view through Indian eyes and why they refuse to sign up to a US centric world order, whilst also not accepting the China one either. I suspect Putin is desperate to get significant buy in from Xi as a partner, but Xi will be extracting a high price if he does because he will pay a high price as a result.

One also strongly suspects both parties are waiting for a change of leadership in the US, hopefully Republican from their perspective and Ukraine fatigue in the west playing into their long term ambitions of a significant and seemingly irreversible dilution in western power and reach. That and a Taiwan more receptive to reunification.

The former President of Taiwan has just made a surprise visit to China and I suspect many Taiwanese would prefer some form of rapprochement with the mainland and business going on pretty much as usual to being obliterated by it and a pawn between 2 great powers. Western support in Afghanistan and Iraq has laid clear how fickle that support is in the long run and how allies can be abandoned when US interests no longer align with them.

www.theguardian.com/world/2023/mar/20/former-taiwan-president-to-visit-china-in-unprecedented-trip