Relations between China and the UK

Yes I have seen it it's very good. China's crime is to have been too successful funded by western money and a thawing of relations started by Nixon and it's power and economic success is threatening US hegemony. If instead of fighting useless wars in Iraq and Afghanistan costing an estimated 6 trillion dollars and costing 100s of thousand of lives and had spent their time reinforcing their industrial base then maybe like the Chinese they would have something to celebrate. Instead, we seem to be at the edge of economic decline and being groomed to see China as our enemy. The age of the US dictating how the world operates is coming to an end. The war hawks need to crank their necks back in.

We're moving away from the unipolar (i.e. US-dominated) world we've had since after WW2 to a multipolar (China/US/maybe others) world. It's going to be interesting to see how it's going to play out as traditional "western powers" (UK, Aus, Canada, etc) have always aligned with the US but we have new and growing powers (China, India, maybe even Russia) who either do not want to or have not committed to aligning with the predominant western sphere of influence. Chinese soft power has grown immensely in Asia and increasingly in Africa in the past 10 years or so. Interesting times indeed.

Yes the despotic, head choping Saudis who the US has backed to the hilt as their partner in the Middle East have made their peace with Iran and are new buddies with China. Joe Biden got told no when he went there trying to get them to pump more oil last year. I think MBS got upset when the west criticised him for the terrible killing of the journalist in Turkey. Human rights are only an issue when you don't toe the US line.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamal_Khashoggi

It is an interesting discussion and I’m not as up to speed as others with reading etc

I have questions over narratives around China and whether it is justified or not. Being prepared rather than provocative is probably ok, not sure. I also wonder how much Russia is showing people we didn’t take the situation seriously enough.

It’s complex and I’m sure there’s a wealth of knowledge out there I could read / watch on it.

Unfortunately the US won't give up its crown too easily and there will be plenty of posturing (this submarine thing) going on and probably a lot of trade disputes and cyber warfare-type things. Things will get more difficult on some levels. I don't expect (I really hope) they won't be stupid enough to go outright war on it, though.

Our economy was shredded but the us economy boomed.

Different times, of course.

If a shooting war began with China at the very least the global economic system would effectively collapse for the little people, with ruined assets and roaring inflation - that's when gold comes into its own. But it thought to be so crazy economically that hopefully it should never happen.

www.reuters.com/breakingviews/economic-war-with-china-would-be-mad-2023-02-14/

@Abra1t - my point exactly - the USA weren’t “in” the 2WW in that apart from Hawaii, there was no war on mainland USA, nothing was destroyed and needed to be rebuilt.
The USA could take advantage of the long term peace, plus the time it took for the U.K. to rebuild itself (and Europe too) to quietly make themselves into the mega power that they are today. Not a bad thing! But a good example of why being right in there at the centre of the war is pretty much always a bad thing.

It is a difficult one. I don’t see us at war in 18 months, but the relationship is bad. China (and really I mean the government) is a difficult party to negotiate with. They’ve shown themselves aggressive in the region and if we do nothing, it could encourage further aggression. But if the west looks aggressive it can increase the threat. It’s a fine balance.

There was a fair bit of criticism over Russia and leaving it too late

People need to be careful not to push us closer but at same time won’t want to repeat above mistake

I sometimes think China is being unfairly represented but probably don’t anywhere near full info

Historically China didn't interfere much outside it's borders, hence the Great Wall whereas the British forced opium down their throats and nicked Hong Kong which they were forced to accept a gunpoint. They have been through hell with ww2, revolution and then the Cultural Revolution with upwards of 30 million people killed either at their own hands or others. Anything other than skilful diplomacy with them is a fool's errand and should be at the forefront of our leader’s minds. Everybody would lose and lose big if war was ever to begin which is why it never must.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes

Historically China didn't interfere much outside it's borders

Those borders have been quite fluid, however.

If you sit back and look at how much money and investment China has put into infrastructure, local authorities, tech, banking etc globally over the years it's quite safe to say they control the world.

If we go to war with China we are fucked. They've built an empire by stealth and we've just let them.

Wrong. China has been a genocidal empire building nightmare of a nation for centuries. The latest atrocities are the poor Uyghur people.

But I fully agree the only way is very skillful diplomacy here. We cannot go to war with them.

The landmass of China is 50 times that of the UK it is a huge country.

I'm inclined to agree with this.

Yeah, but it hasn’t always been that way. If you look at historical maps of China it has expanded over time, a lot.

I'd thoroughly recommend reading up on Chinese history it's fascinating. I know what I've said up there is potentially very inflammatory but I feel that way about every nation that held an empire 😁 it's quite interesting how china came to be how we see it now

If we are going back centuries then you need to include genocide of Aboriginal people in Australia, Native Americans in the US. Aztec people in South America and a host of others. Arguably if you take the last 500 years as your benchmark they have a better record than Europeans and their descendants. The Uyghur’s are Muslim and whilst their treatment is disgraceful so has been western wars in the Middle East which have killed 100s of thousands' of people needlessly. No good will come from warmongering with China which is why people should stop this narrative.

I think what makes a lot of people nervous about China is the form of its government. One party states don’t have a great track record. I think we have to find a way to work with them as China isn’t going anyway, and probably neither is the CCP

No nation is immune from being genocidal maniacs in the search for an empire!

But in the same way as some other "historical" nations centuries of this behaviour has led to some very adept skills in diplomacy and warfare. As you say. No good will come from warmongering with China and our politicians will know this.

If we go to war with China you will have bigger things to worry about than drinking out of plastic cups.

To be fair, China doesn’t need to go to war over anything. They control the means of production for the global economy, they own mines, trade links (Belt and Road), factories, businesses and ports worldwide. They’ve invested in every economy in the world with trade that is vastly beneficial to them. They are high up in Universities, have the ear of governments and have skilfully walked a careful line between the west and Russia. They've re-taken Hong Kong with basically zero effort. They’ve basically already “won”, and would be totally mad to jeopardise that over a tiny island that, in their mind, is theres anyway.

Agree. They have lent billions to African states who are now all in china’s debt. They have also supplied digital infrastructure to numerous countries which means they can be controlled from afar. Their reach is terrifying.

Yet here we are complaining about our foreign aid programmes and how we shouldn’t be supporting countries poorer than ourselves to build their infrastructure and feed their people. Where we pull out we leave a vacuum that China is only too happy to fill. We are exceptionally short sighted.