Domestic abuse and victim blaming on MN?

[BeBlueSeal]

After I feel like hijacking many vulnerable women’s threads, thought it’d be interesting to start a conversation about this in its own right.

I love Mumsnet. I’ve used it and read it since I became a Mum 20 years ago. I love how it’s a female focused environment with smart clever women. Three babies in it’s still very much my go-to, googling any baby related issue. I’ll put “Mumsnet” on the end of my search because I value the input of “mumsnetters”!

I am genuinely disturbed by how many domestic violence related threads I see on here with victim blaming language constantly thrown around.

Why don’t you tell him to fuck Off?
i wouldn’t stand for this
i I would have done X, I would have done Y.
staying for the children ha ha ha ha are you serious?
you need to be stronger.
Are you a doormat?
Why did you have children with this man? Why did you have another child with this man?
How can you put your kids through this? I wouldn’t stand for this.
You’re not five years old.

Is there a fundamental misunderstanding here as to what domestic abuse actually is among swathes of women who have never experienced it?

why are so many people on this site unable to grasp that they do not understand or know what it’s like to be in this position ?

when I was in refuge with my babies, I met so many wonderful women. Intelligent, vibrant, wonderful women. Why does the cliche still exist on this site that DV victims need to “wake up”, tell their abusers to “fuck off” and “stop having kids”?

I'm so very sorry this happened to you. - it must have been utterly horrendous.

As I said to another poster, it sounds like you are very confident your mother could have easily and safely left, had she chosen to. And so I imagine you feel all kinds of hard feelings about the fact that she didn't, of course.

Where I think you are mistaken, is assuming that this is the case in all subilar situations.

There are many, many instances where attempting to leave, or attempting to use contraception to prevent more pregnancies, would lead to disfigurement or murder, for example.

And surely you do not think that repeatedly telling a woman to "leave and stop having babies", whose husband would kill her the moment she attempted to do either, is acceptable?

There’s also the fact that leaving an abusive partner is the most dangerous point.

Most of us who’ve been through it won’t actually leave until it becomes just as dangerous to stay.

I think a lot of the people who claim they ‘call out‘ bad behaviour etc are full of shit,

It’s easy to be very hypothetically assertive.

I'm so sorry you suffered like that - it sounds incredibly hard.

I don't think OP or anyone else is questioning your right to feel anger towards your mother - you saw her situation first hand and presumably have a good understanding of what courses if action were and weren't available to her.

But it's a very different situation with an anonymous poster on the internet who has shared only a tiny snippet of her life. Presumably you wouldn't feel such strong anger towards a woman you didn't know? Because you'd realise that you barely knew anything about her story.....

Again, so sorry you were hurt like that, and I hope you have managed to find some peace and healing. You must be incredibly strong to survive such trauma.

Oh yes, I understand that. But it does appear to be that if one wants to avoid unhelpful and harmful advice, responses should be limited to recommendations to speak to Women's Aid.

Asking for advice on a forum will always result in responses of varied helpfulness, and I’m not sure there's much that can be done to avoid that. I do think posters are generally well-intended, though. Although I can understand people expressing frustration when children are being exposed to abuse, and the OP is resistant to accepting that, despite having the ability to seek help.

So they are supposed to stay and be abused? Bruises and broken bones are ok? Leaving is hard, but so is staying.

This is why I made sure as an adult I always have the ability to leave and I am raising my daughter to have the same. We need to change as a society. Anyone can be a victim of abuse, but no one should be in a position where walking out the door after the first incident isn’t possible.

I think you’re misunderstanding the point that @Ilovelurchers is making, which is well supported by research. Nobody is “supposing” that abused women should stay. What happens is that it very difficult for women to leave. It often takes several attempts over several years before they were able to do so. This can be frustrating for people who are trying to help women in those circumstances unless and until they have the experience and knowledge to understand what is going on.

It is not, as so many people on this thread have explained, a simple matter of leaving or staying.

there is an outline of the information here

https://www.thehotline.org/support-others/why-people-stay-in-an-abusive-relationship/

It isn’t victim blaming to point out that there is still a degree of personal accountability at play.

Enjoying this discussion but just leaving here that every 3 days a woman is killed in the UK - typically by a partner or an ex partner. Its a very very complex and dangerous situation. Choices for women aren't easy.

Perhaps domestic abuse is just too complex and difficult to be addressed by anyone except professionals. Is there an argument to be made that MN shouldn't allow such discussions to take place, and to signpost to DA organisations instead?

Do what netmums do and partner with women's aid. Netmums response is great.

I don’t think all situations are the same no, but with that there had to be acknowledged that some people don’t help themselves. Obviously not all people, but some. I say this due to my own experience as a child and my mother’s inability to make the right choices in the best interest for us. She wasn’t a bad person but she didn’t protect us.

As an adult I made sure I had kids with someone who was absolutely lovely because I didn’t want the same thing to happen to my kids that happened to me. They say those who have had abusive childhoods often go in to have abusive relationships as that’s what they recognise yet I absolutely went for the polar opposite of my dad because he was awful. It was a conscious choice and my kids have had the best experience of a wonderful dad.

I have a friend who got together with an absolute waste of space loser. Within the first month the red flags were there and she knew it, but she was so wrapped up in the beginnings of lust that she wouldn’t be told. I told her and another friend did but it fell on deaf ears. A few months later she was pregnant and a few of us said if you have a baby with him then it’s not going to end well. It fell on deaf ears. She had the baby then low and behold had to move out so she did do the right thing in the end for the sake of her child and herself but there was no need to get in to that situation in the first place. It was clear as day he was vile but she wouldn’t listen. So in some situations I think people make shit decisions and that’s an example of a situation that was avoidable for her and her child. He was an absolute dickhead and anyone with half a brain could see that.

I don’t believe all situations are like the above but equally I think we need to be accountable for our choices too.

Maybe your mum couldn’t save herself or escape the abusive relationship but did enough to make sure that she saved you and stopped the cycle. You could see red flags and avoided the losers your friends ended up with and knew enough to choose an absolutely lovely father for your children. Maybe this is all down to you but that is unlikely statistically speaking.

I’m not the poster you responded to, but I had a similar experience in childhood, albeit it was severe emotional abuse rather than physical. I was let down by a parent who didn’t want to be alone and didn’t want the shame of a failed relationship. The line “stayed together for the kids” trotted out on the rare occasion we bring it up as adults (all of us generally avoid the topic, have been scarred for life, therapy for decades etc.), but of course we all know that’s complete nonsense. Abuse is so much more widespread than the cases of murdered and severely physically attacked women we sadly read about, and so there are many, many cases where the abused partner CAN leave. They actually have options - not the most palatable ones perhaps, and could mean being worse off financially, estrangement from disapproving family members etc., but they’re options nonetheless. What options does a 5 year-old child have? Precisely none. Both parents have a responsibility to protect a child. And a parent who stays with an abuser and subjects their child to torture has FAILED that child, just as the abusive parent has.

She didn’t do anything to save us consciously. She just got drunk every night so I had an alcoholic mother and an abusive nasty horrible dad. I was a good kid and kept my nose clean and just kept my head down and as soon as I could leave I did at 18, never ever to return. Then she died when I was 22 just turned so no help or support from either of them and no one to rely on so I had to make the right choices because there was no one to help or support me if I didn’t. She did have supportive parents and he dad was kind gentle soul unlike that twat of a dad I had to endure

I mean it depends on exactly what is said and to whom but no, I think sometimes the hardline stuff is useful.

Gently, gently doesn’t always cut it.
They have the man’s voice in their head and sometimes a similarly aggressive and intrusive one is needed in order to destabilise it.

Sometimes fire needs to be fought with a bloody strong water hose.

Nudge. Guide gently. It's really difficult to think in the situation unless you got out early. It's your normal now.

Have you thought of...
Could you...

Help them make a plan to leave. Suggest easy steps
Send links to women's aid, and other helpful sites

Give them hope for something different

Explain how they might feel and how this might make it harder for them but there is hope once they are out.

Lots of women loved the abuser and miss the person he was at the beginning and want that back. It's hard to accept that this was a lie and false.

Remember that they are most at risk when leaving. If he's made threats to kill the children if they leave then this is not something to do without serious planning and somewhere to go. If courts are going to give him access, and they do, then it might be safer to stay and protect them as best as possible until a proper plan is in place. Family annihilation is a thing.

You hold a woman who stays equally responsible with the man who perpetrates the abuse? I can't agree with that.

And it may be the case that in some situations the woman could safely leave and chooses not to - but my point is, nobody knows this from a few paragraphs on a website. So to advise her to leave, when for all the adviser knows she would be writing her own and her kid's death warrant, I think is reckless and harmful.

You think we should be as abusive as the abuser?

I find that shocking.

I didn’t say equally responsible, but certainly responsible. I find it shocking at how little we talk about the children in domestic abuse cases - it’s always all about the poor abused adult.

Except in very rare cases, I do not believe any adult has absolutely zero options but to stay with an abuser and allow their children to continue being abused. The cases you describe of the murder of women and their children are thankfully extremely rare relative to how unbelievably widespread abuse is, especially emotional abuse. Any parent who puts their desire to not be “alone” or deal with the fallout/shame of divorce over their child’s wellbeing should be utterly ashamed of themselves and should expect a very fraught and fractured relationship with their adult children.

There was a woman some years ago on Mumsnet. She was strongly encouraged to leave her (appalling) husband with her two daughters.

She did, but she needed serious help after the abuse she'd been put through. It wasn't available.

She committed suicide - someone who had been in touch with her IRL posted. Her poor little daughters, who had seen their mother abused repeatedly, then lost their family home, then been left motherless, went to their aunt. What chance do those children have?

I think that it's right to encourage people to leave abusers, but I also think that people should think about the particular situation of the person posting and sometimes tread very carefully.

She didn’t say he abusive

she did say be utterly clear , don’t let out voices be drowned by the dominant male

often the first step for many women is simply recognising that what is happening to them is seriously wrong - making that totally clear is what many women are trying to do

Where did I say that? I find it “shocking” that you make ridiculous assumptions.

Strength isn’t abuse babe.
Calling out bullshit and appealing to a persons inner warrior, isn’t abuse.

Sometimes the person might be too fragile to hear it. It might not always be the best course of action. But the “oh there there petal it’ll magically be alright” softly softly approach, probably isn’t going to help a jot with people who have their abuser living in their head.

@Makkkai suspect the story about your friend is sadly more common than people care to admit. There are some women who finally admit they are being abused, then say they have no friends because their friends hated him and he encouraged she cut contact. She lost touch with family after they tried to break up the relationship. All the people who warn her time and again and she is blind to it then one day the veil slips and she sees she is a victim of abuse. I still have huge sympathy for a woman in this situation but the narrative of 'it could have happened to anyone else' isn't always so. I know many people who saw one little tiny red flag weeks or months into a relationship and immediately left because they were not prepared to let the relationship develop. There is often something emotionally damaged in the victim before they become abused and this is what draws them to the abuser in the first place when all around them can see it clearly. (Note I said sometimes, I appreciate sometimes a person changes completely)

Oh Ive just seen your thread OP, i nearly started one just like it. Women being berated, shamed, put down, virtually called stupid for having a horrible spouse or partner

I posted something the other day, a random comment about my OH, in thread that wasnt about me, it was about autism and I was giving exmaples of behaviour and was asked 'have you ever thought about getting a less shitty OH'

The thread wasnt about me, I wasnt complaining, but people arent perfect, I was just giving examples of something he does to support another post.

But if I was senstive or had low self esteem or was worried, that would be completley inappropriate to post that when Im no the focus and not asking for help or advice

If you didnt already have low self esteem leading to your choice of partner, you certainly would have by the time you read the replies on any thread where you're asking for help!