To want a society where we just pay for ourselves

[LettingTheBadThingsGo]

Okay this is going to get some backs up but it's also how I feel so..
I wish we could just live in a society where we all just pay for ourselves.
So you want to have children - you pay for it all yourself. No benefits of any kind.
You want to see a GP - You pay a fee and get the service
You need the police - You pay a fee and get the service
You want education for your kids - you pay for it and get to choose where to send them

Nobody gets a pension or any benefits. However we all know this and as such we pay no tax/NI and save for ourselves.

Obviously there would have to be a phased input over a large number of years (like 30)

I want to know that if I need the police I can get them here in 5 mins. If I need an ambulance I want to know I can get it here in 5 mins. I don't want to not have these services because there is a rubbish 'free' service because there is not enough being allocated to them because it's all being spent on things I disagree with (welfare, council houses)

This would make everyone responsible for themselves. Those who work hard would be better off. Those who don't work will be worse off. Seems fair to me.

Everyone would save from day 1 in case they become ill or disabled and need to support themselves or have a disabled child (although they could choose not to have children in the first place).

I find it very weird that we live in a capitalist society where so many people are being supported by welfare. To me that is the opposite of a capitalist society.

Obviously there are some things that could never be allocated to each person such as defence of the country. There would have to still be a 'country charge' to every person to cover things that just could not be split. Street lighting would probably have to come under this as well. However roads could be covered by a charge to each person based on their mileage each year.

Yes it would take lots of thought and as I said would have to be implemented over a large number of years. However this would lead to a more productive society as well as better services. Obviously on the basis of a thread I haven't thought everything out but hopefully you all get the idea.

Anybody who didn't want to live like that could leave of course and live somewhere else.

So anyone else agree - no tax or ni - save and pay for yourself. Just pay a 'country charge' to cover things that can't be allocated like defence of country. Everything else is private (healthcare, police, pensions) and you save for it all yourself.

The only people who I can imagine not wanting this is those that live on the hard work of others ie life time welfare claimants. For everyone else surely they would be better off.

You don't tackle one of the main issues - which is inherited wealth. If we all started off on a level playing field then maybe (its a big maybe) some of you ideas would work. But most rich people in the UK are not rich because they work really hard but because someone down the line, owned loads of land! That won't make society fairer.

Someone on school holiday already?

It would undoubtedly be women who suffer the most and have the worst possible outcomes in that type of society.

Op if you hate women just say it so we know where you stand.

When we were living in America I was told to run into the ER with my eight year old sister whilst my mum parked the car. She gave me her driving licence, insurance card and told me to state that her temperature was over X for over Y amount of hours, nothing was bringing it down and she was becoming unresponsive.

I ran as quickly as I could with her floppy little body to the ER desk to some woman chewing gum who didn’t want to hear my speech I had repeated the whole way to make sure I didn’t forget.

Instead she just wanted to know what insurance we were with. I didn’t know and in that moment I didn’t think to look on the card my mom gave me.

I told her we had insurance but she needed a doctor now. Do you know how hard it was trying to get that insurance card out my back pocket holding an unresponsive child. The woman told me I couldn’t put the child down on the desk.

Once she had the insurance info, she took down my speech, a nurse came running over took my sister and ran her out back. Emergency apparently. Had to check to
make sure she didn’t have brain damage.

Technically they bent the rules for us as they shouldn’t have processed her without my Mum being present as it was her insurance/ID. You know, I could have been a teenage Mom using somebody else’s insurance…

But this is just a wind up thread.

You are describing life before the 20th century. When poor people, including children, had to operate as thieves, beggars, prostitutes. Maybe read Les Miserables or Oliver Twist for more insight.

First buy guns.
Build your own sewage system and then use the guns to defend it.

That’s not really a society then though is it? The whole point of a society is working together. Protecting those who can’t fend for themselves / supporting the elderly/ education etc.

But the OP is not civilised and does not want to live in a civilised country so won't care

We already did this anyway. Charles Dickens would be turning in his grave!

A few thoughts ... firstly we have tried this, it ended up with the workhouse/people starving/ dying in the streets.

I'd also imagine you'd be astonished how much most of the things you're talking about cost. We are an objectively high earning household, no way could we afford private education etc.

Also, even if people were being very careful and waiting until they could afford education etc. to have kids, the population would die out pretty damn quickly.

It's called the U.S.A

Or rapes and murders?

Presumably that’s what OP wants, neo-Serfdom?

OP, you should give thanks that you live in such ignorance to be able to write such a disgusting thread.

How much do you earn, OP?

I am curious to know how much you think you need for this to work for you.
What happens if you want to pop down to Waitrose and they are closed again because two members of staff just died of cancer/sepsis/measles?

Those who work hard would be better off. @LettingTheBadThingsGo

Have you talked to any care workers, hospitality staff, nurses, brickies, any jobs where people are on their feet for 9 hours a day with only one legally required 20 minute break??
They're working pretty damn hard but I can't say they're better off on their minimum wage.

Also, god forbid you become unable to work for any reason.

Not doing your research for you-you can pay someone to do it!

This. Anthropologists say the first sign of 'civilisation' is a broken bone which has healed. It means that a person became unproductive due to an accident, couldn't hunt or farm etc, and the community looked after them until they healed instead of letting them starve.

I think the OP makes some interesting points. Of course as described it's unworkable but I am guessing that the OP is starting from a perspective of wanting to see people taking a lot more personal responsibility and paying less tax.

That is not an unreasonable perspective.

If we don't have thought experiments like this nothing changes. So the debate is healthy even if at the extremes the position is unrealistic.

Nevertheless it is sometimes worth reflecting that our grandparents and preceding generations managed to avoid dying on the streets in droves even though they preceded the welfare state. So you could have a civilised society without the huge public sector benefits system we have today.

Honestly, I never want to go back to Thailand in the late 80s.

Where the fire brigade (in flip flops) stand there spraying your neighbours house cos they coughed up on the spot. While yours burns down cos you haven8t got enough cash or gold to hand.

Where to get the visa I was entitled to renewed, I had to show up with a little something something, to get it done before the next ice-age arrived.

Where rats didn’t sit there brazenly staring you down, knowing you were more frightened of them than they were of you. Because rubbish piled up where nobody paid for it to be taken away.

Where children were purposefully maimed, and “bosses” came around twice daily to collect the money they’d successfully begged for, leaving them with a pittance.

I never came back to the live in the U.K., moved to the EU. And I do understand the frustration with your welfare system.

However it is worth looking at systems elsewhere, with contribution, time and community work limitation. To see if they are a better fit. Because there are many shades of of possibility between what you have now, and nothing.

Nothing at all can have many, many unlovable and unintended consequences that impact everybody living in a society. Even those in gated communities have to venture out into the big, bad world from time to time, and absolutely “nothing” as a system doesn’t usually make the country where you live a nicer place to exist in.

It sounds to me as if that's what OP wants? A final solution, so to speak.

Oh dear. I think the first problem (or solution?) with your plan might be that you yourself wouldn’t end up where you would hope to be in this new society.

Education might help you. I’d suggest starting with Dickens.

What's your stance on child labour, OP?

Prisons? Or does that come under ‘country tax’ along with defence, street lighting etc. oh and if you need a doctor you have hope they are a specialist in your issue, along with being a surgeon in it too?

I find it very weird that we live in a capitalist society where so many people are being supported by welfare. To me that is the opposite of a capitalist society.

I think you don't understand what capitalism is. It's largely about who owns the means of production. I think the word you're looking for is libertarianism.

Capitalism relies on poverty to function. Capitalism rewards ownership, not hard work, and it requires poor people to do the bulk of the labour for the fewer number of owners to keep the profit. I really do think you need to do some reading and research before you say such ill-informed things.

Anybody who didn't want to live like that could leave of course and live somewhere else

this is a minor point which shows your ignorance.

Think about it. Where would you go? You need to work, you need a visa. Most countries don’t allow people to immigrate at will, you need to prove that you have skills they need and will benefit their society.

so you, o/p, where would you go? You don’t like the UK, so pick somewhere that works the way you want it to.

the US is probably closest to your ideal- move there? Do you have any idea on the immigration process?

This isn't a new idea. We used to have a society like this. There were many disadvantages. A key one being that at the lowest level ('the poor') people were unable to sustain a lifestyle that kept them healthy enough to work and contribute. They lived in slums, couldn't feed their families, and died on the streets. Where they did work, because they weren't sufficiently well fed or housed, they were not as productive as they might have been. It's no coincidence that the early drivers of welfare, of the provision of housing and free education were business owners.