To want a society where we just pay for ourselves

[LettingTheBadThingsGo]

Okay this is going to get some backs up but it's also how I feel so..
I wish we could just live in a society where we all just pay for ourselves.
So you want to have children - you pay for it all yourself. No benefits of any kind.
You want to see a GP - You pay a fee and get the service
You need the police - You pay a fee and get the service
You want education for your kids - you pay for it and get to choose where to send them

Nobody gets a pension or any benefits. However we all know this and as such we pay no tax/NI and save for ourselves.

Obviously there would have to be a phased input over a large number of years (like 30)

I want to know that if I need the police I can get them here in 5 mins. If I need an ambulance I want to know I can get it here in 5 mins. I don't want to not have these services because there is a rubbish 'free' service because there is not enough being allocated to them because it's all being spent on things I disagree with (welfare, council houses)

This would make everyone responsible for themselves. Those who work hard would be better off. Those who don't work will be worse off. Seems fair to me.

Everyone would save from day 1 in case they become ill or disabled and need to support themselves or have a disabled child (although they could choose not to have children in the first place).

I find it very weird that we live in a capitalist society where so many people are being supported by welfare. To me that is the opposite of a capitalist society.

Obviously there are some things that could never be allocated to each person such as defence of the country. There would have to still be a 'country charge' to every person to cover things that just could not be split. Street lighting would probably have to come under this as well. However roads could be covered by a charge to each person based on their mileage each year.

Yes it would take lots of thought and as I said would have to be implemented over a large number of years. However this would lead to a more productive society as well as better services. Obviously on the basis of a thread I haven't thought everything out but hopefully you all get the idea.

Anybody who didn't want to live like that could leave of course and live somewhere else.

So anyone else agree - no tax or ni - save and pay for yourself. Just pay a 'country charge' to cover things that can't be allocated like defence of country. Everything else is private (healthcare, police, pensions) and you save for it all yourself.

The only people who I can imagine not wanting this is those that live on the hard work of others ie life time welfare claimants. For everyone else surely they would be better off.

I so wish name changes weren't allowed, so I could remember your name and avoid you. The ignorance is astounding.

Mmmmm hard no OP.

Disabled people dying on the streets is not something a civilised country should aspire to.

I don't know where to start with explaining how this could never work. And how it would lead to a truly awful society that does not care for its weakest members. Maybe just move to the US who aren't this extreme but getting there?

So if someone can't pay for police/hospital you feel they should just be left to die??? That isn't the society I (or any person with any moral sense) would want to live in.

Are all wages going to be the same for all jobs then?
Those who are disabled?
Sounds like a bloody awful way to live to be honest.

Bit early for gin isn’t it?

Ooft!

There is not only something deeply wrong with everything you’re suggesting there’s something deeply wrong with you for thinking it.

You want to be able to get police or ambulance within 5 mins becayse you are paying for it - what if you couldn't afford it? As with most private enterprise price will rise until supply and demand balance.

I suggest you are financially comfortable and feel you'd always be able to afford services you need, imagine if you couldn't? Imagine living in a country where a lot of people couldn't afford to educate their children or pay to have their broken leg fixed.

If you can't imagine it go and visit such a country, poverty on your doorstep is not something to welcome.

What you have described is not going to happen, nor should it. There are genuinely vulnerable people that need support.

however, I do believe that the current system is broken. That needs addressing.

Ok, what about the court system?

Christ! I'm fairly conservative but even I know this is absurd. I actually drafted a longer reply but honestly I feel you've just crawled out of the stupid box, or goody box (unsure which), so deleted it.

I see Messrs Dunning & Kruger are busy this morning.

Educate yourself on basic economics before you go spouting off like this.

You say you "find it very weird that we live in a capitalist society where so many people are being supported by welfare" but have never considered there may be good reason for that, or bothered to do even the smallest amount of reading?

🙄

So this is a very interesting fantasy world you've created.

But it would never work in reality for lots of reasons.

There will always be vulnerable people either through accident/ healthy/disability/trauma who will be unable to make responsible decisions and who will need society to help them.

If there is no safety net what so ever then if anyone falls on hard times/ can't get another job/ leaves an abusive relationship/ has a child with caring needs etc then those people will be left in abject poverty.

When you pay into the benefits system it might look like you're paying for other people but you aren't. You're paying a) insurance for yourself should you ever find yourself in a difficult unforeseen situation which could happen tomorrow god forbid. And b) you're paying for a civil society. We know its a fact that poverty massively increases criminality as people become more desperate/vulnerable to exploitation/disillusioned/ self focused. We also know for fact that poverty impacts very negatively on health outcomes. The difference in longevity by postcode can be as much as 20 years life expectancy lost in some areas. The impact on mental and physical health would be significant as people live under more pressure and that will increase pressure on any healthcare system/ community providers. Poverty will also mean we've more children struggling in education which will affect every child in the classroom. If you can't successfully get children through education that affects employment outcomes which in your world will contribute significantly to them living in poverty. You'd also see an increase in harmful family dynamics as people are unable to leave abusive partners. Families living in more poverty means more children going into the care system and children who live in the care system are more likely to go to prison than higher education and have much poorer health outcomes.

So all of those services you think will run smoothly because we're all paying will be inundated. And anyone who can't pay for them will just be left suffering on the street which will massively impact on how safe you feel in your own community.

So it really depends on if you want to live in a nice, safe society. That is what you're paying towards when you pay taxes towards benefits.

Also just FYI a significant proportion of people claiming benefits work full time.

We tried that. People starved in the streets. As long as I'm alright jack....

Take a look at the countries well there is little or no welfare state and see how they are doing. Fancy living like that or are you so blinkered to other people’s struggling and suffering that you have literally no clue who hard it is for disabled people, those with mental and physical health issues or those with learning difficulties or low IQ.

Crikey, you must live in some gilded gage where no regular person resides.

It's really interesting that you assume you'd be in a position to pay for anything and everything you need in this hypothetical society.

Everyone would save from day 1 in case they become ill or disabled and need to support themselves

And what if they're disabled from day 1? Or suffer a life changing injury before they have saved up enough to support themselves (and their higher care costs) for the rest of their lives?

How long do you think you'd have to work before you could stop for good and support yourself?

In your system, what would happen to a child who was being abused? Are you funding social services? Or does that child just have to lump it?

And who pays if I call the police on someone committing a crime that doesn't affect me? Presumably if I witness an assault, either I have to cough up for the victim to be seen, or I have to check that they've got enough money to pay for their own policw attendance?

"Obviously on the basis of a thread I haven't thought everything out "

Lol, you can say that again! 😂

Astonishing ignorance.

So are you going to pay for your one gp (presumably) to get trained up with all the knowledge they need on all the potential illnesses you might get? And you’re going to pay for a ward to be built and some doctors and nurses who can treat you? And you’re going to have the knowledge of all the potential conditions/disabilities that might affect you in future so you can make sure there is the equipment and medicines to treat those?

I’m only talking about health, but the same thinking applies to all the public services you use. You effectively pay a premium so that these things are available to you when/if you need them.

Do you also not have home/contents/travel/car insurance? You do know you’re not getting back exactly what you pay in, don’t you?

🙄 course you do!

I can understand the appeal of paying less tax and having more personal responsibility, but its not as simple as this and your post is incredibly naive.

Many of the services you've listed don't just benefit the individual who uses them they benefit society as a whole. Even if I never have children, I still benefit from living in a country with educated people. Even if I never call the police, I benefit from crime being investigated. Even if I rarely use the NHS, I benefit from infectious diseases being treated and prevented. Supposing you pay for police to tackle the anti social behaviour being directed at your own door- all good. The people next door to you cant afford it so they get their windows all smashed in, fights breaking out, shouting at all hours of the night, people are stabbed etc this is right next door to you. You are safe but you are surrounded by this chaos- do you really imagine this wont affect you???

The biggest issue is catastrophic risk. Most people could save for routine healthcare or retirement, but very few could save enough to cover lifelong disability, a child needing millions of pounds of medical treatment, or years of social care. That's why insurance and taxation exist in the first place-to spread risks that individuals can't reasonably bear alone.

I also don't think it's fair to suggest that the only people who would oppose this are lifelong welfare claimants. Plenty of hardworking, high-earning taxpayers support public healthcare, education and welfare because they believe they create a healthier, safer and more productive society.

If your ideal were to happen in reality I actually think you'd be bloody horrified by the result because your life wouldnt improve, it would get significantly worse very, very quickly. Having services yourself is not much comfort if people all around you are dying and society is breaking down and violence is erupting in your neighbourhood