Henry Nowak second thread, as requested.

[rolloverbeethoven]

www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5536249-henry-nowak?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

@measuretwicecutonceI'm not sure that follows.

Opposing a ban on kirpans doesn't automatically mean someone thinks their religious beliefs are more important than public safety. It may simply mean they believe the current balance between religious freedom and public safety is appropriate.

You can disagree with that position, but it's a leap to assume bad faith or indifference to Henry's death.

As for the second point, if Sikh girls were among the victims of grooming gangs, that's a tragedy that deserves recognition and reporting. But I'm not sure what that has to do with whether a religious exemption relating to kirpans should remain in place.

It feels like a lot of different issues are being folded into one debate. Henry's murder was a terrible crime. The kirpan exemption is a policy question. Grooming gangs are another issue entirely. We can discuss each on its own merits without conflating them.

Yes, Sikhs were at “odds with the muslims.” Historically, the muslim Mughals and Afghans were pillaging. looting, plundering, torturing, kidnapping indigenous women to sell them as sex slaves in their markets and forcing conversion of the indigenous people to Islam by the sword. Sikhs were almost exterminated in two major Sikh holocausts. What did you expect them to do? Sit around singing kumbaya with their oppressors?The kirpan to this day is a symbol against injustice and tyranny. Injustice and tyranny doesn’t always come in the form of muslims.

The second weapon that the murderer carried was not a kirpan. It was a Persian style, armour-piercing dagger. No kirpan-wearing Sikh in Britain has ever used the kirpan to murder anyone.

There’s your two tier justice.

That’s rubbish( it was not mainly white Europeans at all.

Yes many other people arrived via the EU

Yes, I'm really glad multiple times a day that my children have dual citizenship so can bugger off somewhere else when they're adults. DH and I are probably stuck here at this point because it would be complicated to move at this point in our lives (although maybe when we're elderly the kids might let us come and live with them - I can but live in hope!).

I'm not going to name the other country but the quality of life in the UK is diverging from quality of life and services in that country and has been for at least the last 10 years, and not in a good way for the UK. We visit every 2 years roughly.

Anyway, sorry that was a bit of a derail. I continue to be more appalled the more information that comes out about how Henry Nowak was treated.

I'm wondering how the 'policing by consent' idea is holding up here. I think it might be dead in the water.

If the knife was not a Kirpan but it was considered as such and the sentence assessed accordingly , surely the matter should come back to court and the sentence be reviewed as people have been seemingly disingenuous? The 20 years needs to be increased.

https://x.com/jomickane/status/2063223093045194824

Here's the full 999 call from the liars if anyone is interested.

I don't understand exactly what you are querying, or if you are at all. Maybe you aren't. The brother told the police several times that no weapons were involved. He implied that Henry was drunk. He did say that H had 'hurt his face' when falling over. He said, "He's bleeding from the mouth. I think he's probably hurt his lip when he fell over the car or from over the gate on to the car bonnet." Yes, he does acknowledge that medical attention is needed, but from the whole of what he said I don't think the police could have understood at that point how seriously Henry was injured. I think they would be expecting a white-skinned drunk who'd got something like an injury to the face that would need a bit of attention and maybe a couple of stitches.

Oh no. I've just replied to an earlier post about the call. I'll read this later.

The excuses I've heard people make for the police is that they didn't have the full story, they had to react quickly to what they thought was a case of a drunk young man who had racially abused someone. But even then, why were they so hostile to Henry and deferential to Digwa?

When Henry was lying on the ground, dying, the officer ordered, "Put the hand in the cuff, mate." Even if he believed Henry was just drunkenly lying about being stabbed, how could that officer fail to see that he clearly wasn't resisting arrest and simply couldn't move?

And then when the female officer asks Henry where he thinks he's been stabbed, a male voice (presumably Digwa or his brother) says, "He hasn't been stabbed." She says, "Oh no, but we have to check, don't we?" She sounds almost apologetic. Apologetic about examining someone who's lying on the ground claiming to have been stabbed.

The male officer tells Henry he's under arrest as he's lying on the ground, not moving. Then he actually shoos the female officer away while she's taking a closer look at him.

And then when they realised Henry had indeed been stabbed, they didn't even handcuff him when they arrested them. Apparently they even offered him refreshments when he got to the police station.

Why did the police treat the two men so differently? I'm glad Digwa is in prison, but I hope the officers face some consequences for the part they played as well.

My friend’s son is a young sergeant in the Met and he said absolutely this police did not follow protocol. Regardless of the alleged offense, at the very latest as soon as he said he could not breathe they should have checked him over properly and called an ambulance s an emergency, not just ‘if you can send one…’ or comment to the accuser apologetically that ‘we have to check’ 😡😡

Wow! That is unbelievable.
They aided and abetted the killer, this country gets worse every day.
So pushing a wheelie bin at a protest and you go straight to prison yet accomplices to a cold blooded murder are not.
I detest what’s happening here every day gets worse and the govt. must go they seem to hate us. They want to crush dissent yet they are a soft touch with the killer’s accomplices …I’m lost for words.
The old bag of a mother better get a decent custodial sentence then straight to deportation. Before her feet touch the ground.

Just read up a bit on the history of India. I've visited several times. Most people think it was only occupied by the British but it was occupied by the Islamic Mughals for 300 years who came from Uzbeckistan and Afghanistan. If you read the history of the East India Company prior to the British occupation, they were at war continuously with the Mughals, not with the natives. That came later when the Mughals were kicked out. The wearing of the sword was a reaction to repression by the Mughals who even killed Sikhs. They also killed Hindus. The building of the Taj Mahal was raised through something called "Jizyah" a Muslim tax on non believers. This whole palace was built on the backs of ethnic Indian labourers and Indian taxes. Hence the current day tensions between Sikhs and Hindus and Muslims in India. Do we really want to see these kind of religious tensions and turf wars here?

@ZoeCM yes I've said this she sounds appeasing and apologetic

@MelanzaneParmigiana one should have already been on the way and the police should have known that

The full 12 minute 999 call has been released.

Thanks that is really interesting

Funny how this is never mentioned and it is always a guilt trip about the terrible British

As Kemi Badenoch said

'I do not want a country fractured into hostile ethnic groups.
If you come to Britain, you cannot and must not bring the racial and cultural grievances of your home nations here, turning our country, our home, into the very place you were running away from.

Changing this disturbing status quo requires bravery from politicians. It won't be easy: we will have to sweep out a lot of the historic, incoherent nonsense that has been brought in under the guise of anti-racism.

Notions of 'white privilege' and forcing 'decolonisation' narratives down the throats of children is not how we build a cohesive society.

We also need to stop the idea that racism is something that happens only to ethnic minorities, perpetrated by white people. This seems to have been the belief of officers in the terrible case of Henry Nowak.

Public bodies must understand that anyone can be a victim of racism.'

Fucking hell, that unabridged call. Lies and more lies, then eventually the r-word.
"That's all I needed to know", says the operator.

Yes, it's a clear example of two tier policing, being deferential towards the ethnic minority and treating the white guy like a criminal. Before establishing the facts.

Politicians and media need to address this and police training needs to be changed. Instead all they talk about is the protest in Southampton and Nigel Farage.

Unsurprisingly, the BBC has already moved on with its news agenda, hoping that we'll all forget about this as quickly as they will.

It will be interesting to see if all this has an impact on the Makerfield by-election. Will the uniparty get a thorough kicking?

They knew exactly what to say. They know how this country works.

I haven’t listened but I’m not surprised, also saddened. Poor Henry, it’s just so bad.