Should anti-Muslim Crusades imagery at marches be treated as incitement?

[noblegiraffe]

Tommy Robinson's march had a strong anti-Muslim sentiment. He was filmed saying that he would end Islam if he was in charge of the country and that Muslims should leave. Meanwhile, Kellie-Jay Keen said "It is not too late to get Islam out of every single official office in this country... we have to remove Islam from every single place of authority."

In this context, the imagery of the Knights Templar which was evident on flags and banners was an obvious reference to the Crusades and battles against Muslims. One attendee dressed up as Richard the Lionheart.

In a society which is saw a 19% increase in hate crimes against Muslims last year, should this sort of symbolism be seen as threats and incitement and banned in a similar way to 'globalise the intifada'? (As to the comments of the speakers, I'm not sure what's happening there but I hope the police take action).

Nobody should be ‘keeping a distance’ from antisemitism. It’s all our business.

But 'globalise the intifada' is?

What Tommy Robinson doesn't realise is that women CHOOSE to wear the burkas. Usually because it's part of their culture, NOT their religion.

There's nothing in Islam that requires it.

That's true, but what in describing is people's general emotional response to these things. The religious folks feel quite passionate about battling each other and we just cringe.

If you think being passionate about not being stabbed or firebombed outside a synagogue is ‘cringe’ then maybe you need to reevaluate.

I forgot one do not want rid of Islam I've been treated recently on the NHS by some very kind Muslim ladies working Saturdays as well. I'm thankful for these hijab wearing ladies.
Crusade imagery is just plain old jingoism and we know where that leads us.

Yes because it invokes Hamas and Hezbollah? Which movement is support of the Crusades invoking?

No because criticising a religion and referring to history etc etc is free speech. Harrassing an individual is what is rightly illegal. We shouldn’t accept curbs on free speech. If there is a genuine incitement to violence that should be prosecuted.

The Islamaphobia legislation is unneeded nonsense and absolutely should not be passed.

the problem with assessing speech entirely by if you find it offensive is that at some point you will find that what you say out loud may be deeply offensive to someone else.

A war against Muslims? That'd be why there were Israeli flags and pre-revolution Iranian flags being waved too.

Hate crimes against Muslims increased by 19% last year so it would be futile to suggest that there's not a real and active sentiment behind this.

It's more that people living in a civilised country feel the need to partake in such things that's cringeworthy. Same goes for people posing as crusaders. All just thoroughly ridiculous.

Hopefully over time the world will just become more and more secular when people realise they can no longer control women or the poor and none of us are in fact watched by some egomaniac bloke in a frock in the sky.

Yeah this isn’t quite the truth is it, one of my dearest friends is struggling with the hijab, she was shoved in it when she was a child(because of religion) and wants to take it off but just can’t. You can say it’s a choice but for some women it was never a free choice and no-ones saying they have to wear the hijab because they are “saudi, Yemeni etc etc” they are told it’s because of their religion.

I’m not denying that some women actively choose it but for many modesty culture is engrained from an early age. Good women cover up.

I do have sympathy with your perspective OP, muslims should not live in fear in the UK. We have clearly got a massive problem with anti-semitism too. I actually think the pro-pal marches are stoking much of this plus the constant reports of asylum seeker rapes and apparently no serious movement to start deporting criminals.

There are deeper problems at play here, a sense of lawlessness and the state seems to be missing.

Righto

I loathe Tommy Robinson and Islamophobia, but the burka is difficult. I honestly don't think some, possibly many, women are choosing to wear it (look at the bonfires of them after the Taliban were temporarily routed) and 'cultural expectations' that mean women are disadvantaged are wrong in any and every society. I agree that from all I know that there is nothing in Islam that requires it.

It certainly shouldn't be used as point scoring by the types who hate everyone who isn't a white British 'Christian'.

Yes.

But ONLY if ‘globalise the intafada’, ‘from the river to the sea’ etc are also treated as incitement.

Tommy Robinson’s racist scumbags & the antisemitic racist Hamas apologists are two cheeks of the same arse.

This is why we need a First Amendment. The state can’t get this right, it’s endless, and every attempt to do so just raises perception of injustice from other groups and so on.

Ban serious incitement to violence, set strict but neutral rules on public protest, and step out of the content-policing game.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c78k1r7rd7ko

"Sir Keir Starmer has called for police to prosecute people chanting "globalise the intifada" during demonstrations, calling it an example of "extreme racism".
Speaking after two Jewish men were stabbed in Golders Green on Wednesday, the prime minister said the chant, based on an Arabic word for uprising, had left Jews feeling "scared, intimidated, wondering if they belong".
He added that the government was also looking at what "further measures we can take on protests", as it responds to concerns over rising antisemitism.
Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Mark Rowley told BBC Breakfast that people using "globalise the intifada" are "likely to be arrested"."

The UK is already descending into sectarianism. The worst thing the state can do, in my opinion, is to enforce it in law. People will cling more vehemently to their in-groups and act more antagonistically to out-groups, if there is any attempt to police inter-group relations by the state.

It is rarely an actual choice without some consequences for making the wrong one.

God knows. Cos play? You may well be right, but there are examples of unacceptable behaviour literally everywhere. We already have so many laws that are just ignored. Making another law to make it illegal to wear a Richard the Lionheart outfit during a march seems ridiculously niche.

I would be delighted to ban marches altogether. Or better yet make it so you can have one march a year for your chosen cause. You have to apply for the right to march and no one can bring banners, flags or dress up. I’d definitely vote for that.

I’ve had some great treatment from English Christian ladies (and men). As well as from followers of multiple other religions.

Not sure why you are singling out Muslims as being particularly special - they are the same as the vast majority of other people living and working here - neither heroes nor villains, just people.

Sorry but what kind of response is this.

It’s either respect and tip-toe around everyone or nobody is free from criticism or offence.

How can you say Christians/Christianity deserve to be mocked but Muslims/Islam should be protected at all costs? It comes across like pandering or being a white-knight etc. This is embarrassing hun

Nuns are very specific, you can't compare a nun to a Muslim woman. The like for like would be to compare a Muslim woman to a catholic woman and we don't wear headscarfs.

If you don't know anything about Islam, don't talk about it