Why do so many people seem to think porn is OK?

[CurlewKate]

I want to make it clear that I have no problem with masturbation. But there is no way of knowing whether the people involved in making porn are fully consenting and properly paid. Obviously some are. But many are trafficked, exploited and coerced and it’s impossible to tell the difference. So why condone it? I know people will say that there have always been erotic images. Of course there have. But there is a big difference between a cave painting or some 19th century etchings or the erotic writing I enjoy and the online porn which has flooded the internet for the past 50ish years.

Oh well maybe you can join @CurlewKate then. Better make sure your cats get on.

And that none of them are tom cats, cos you know what they're like... 😀

My husband is part of a mens group where they discuss this among many things. They all agree that this is exactly how they saw woman. They didn't fully realise at the time and growing up because to admit it brings shame but its also normalised by all other men around them. By room chat by relatives friends work colleagues
It's been eye opening for me and their partners.

Ergh my app isn't working I can't do long messages unfortunately.
essentially I am privy to a world I didn't know existed now as women we give the benefit of the doubt and we are certainly encouraged to be oh so understanding and forgiving. I do now look at men very differently unless they have done the work to acknowledge and change the entitlement and gender shaping that affects them.

As women we I feel we give the benefit

• locker room chat. 🙄 I can't edit my app is really annoying

Haha, perhaps if we get the tom cats neutered, that'll do the job 😆

That's interesting! From my experiences, I think the dehumanising view of women that men tend towards is very common, and endemic at the 'lesser' end of the spectrum. But I don't think that attitude is innate to men. I think testosterone might well play a part, but I think it's just as much nurture as nature - and that nurture can outweigh nature.

To believe anything else is to believe that men are innately dangerous and will always be so, and I'm not quite that cynical yet.

I agree I don't believe it's innate at all. I believe it's gender shaping. A lot of these men grew up with page 3. With naked women calenders on the wall of professional business places the list goes on it's messaging from early on that never gets properly addressed or talked about. It becomes a secret, a man code that men know they shouldn't say out loud especially to the women that benefit them in their lives but amongst men or alone it's acceptable. Because after all "all men do it right?"

That's interesting! From my experiences, I think the dehumanising view of women that men tend towards is very common, and endemic at the 'lesser' end of the spectrum. But I don't think that attitude is innate to men. I think testosterone might well play a part, but I think it's just as much nurture as nature - and that nurture can outweigh nature.

Why do you think so?

Then there are the commonly reported experiences of transmen who say that taking testosterone completely changes their sexual responsiveness and gives them a shocking lightbulb-moment insight into aspects of male sexuality that they never understood before.

But the original question was "what's the appeal", not "why do they believe that acting to satisy that appeal is acceptable"? Acceptability or not is largely irrelevant to the question.

There are of course some women who enjoy watching porn (which in itself defies the idea that it's all about male conditioning), but for those who don't, and ask questions like this because they don't understand it - it's not like they feel all the same attraction towards it that men do but manage to resist because they have superior morality and willpower. It's rather that they don't feel the attraction in the first place.

Hence the question. Now if you wanted to ask why those men who want to do it don't make a better effort to suppress that want, that would be another question.

Oh I haven't read the full thread. My app doesn't work at the best of times.
Well that's a real how long is a piece of string question. That will vary from person to person. Overwhelmingly to the porn addicts and sex addicts I have spoken to the appeal ranges from excitement of being a voyeur, to escaping from everyday life- fantasy, to feeling in control and powerful. Overwhelmingly they say they were looking for connection in a safe place. A way to connect to another human being without being rejected,to feel accepted. Without having to put themselves in a vunerable place or any effort in to forming a relationship or having difficult conversations. They were looking for human intimacy without any of the what we may call human elements. Many of them felt they lacked the skills in real life to navigate that safely in the real world. Many many reasons. That is from men who have looked deeper and reflected on their behaviours. Overall I've found men access pornography in a entirely different way to women. That's speaking in general terms ofcourse there still is female sex addicts/porn addicts but in general men find it more alluring and "meaninful" to them. Women aren't free from conditioning either we live in a very sex positive culture now it's seen as more a negative to be a "prude" than it is for women to engage in pornography.

Sad bastards

As a woman who doesn't see the appeal personally I wonder does emotional intelligence come in to play. I see pornography and I know I'm being lied to. I feel its empty and void of intimacy of lust it feels fake to me. I am relating to the female in the video not the man who mostly is in control it doesn't feel mutual to me or consenting. I can't get passed those stumbling blocks myself (take all the ethics out just in simple terms)

In real life I have the skills to navigate intimacy to explore all the secual desires I have in real life. I cab navigate a deep connection and vulnerability that isn't scary at all for me. I can read body language and interpret actual language wich plays a great role in consensual sex😁

If your a person where all of the above feels terrifying, impossible or doesn't even exist in your world is pornogray more appealing? Like playing the sims of sex you're always god and you're never vunerable.

I'm not saying this is the entire answer I'm wondering does it play a role?

They would agree. The ones who do the work and the therapy become genuinely really lovely men. Some who go on to campaign and talk in schools who want younger generations to avoid the pittfalls they fell down.

Some who seek help are also only 9 or 13. Thankfully they get to live their adult life not hurting those around them. Something the older men feel very sad they didn't get that chance.

Well, if it is innate, then we're probably better off chemically castrating the lot of them, and keeping them in camps, as they can't be trusted...but that seems a little extreme.

Seriously though, as an easy example - my DH's testosterone is at a very healthy level, and he doesn't behave that way in regards to porn, which he doesn't watch. Ethics aside, he's simply not interested in something he can't see and touch in person. I suppose much like myself, he doesn't see the point in it.

And I don't think the experiences of trans identified females taking testosterone can be extrapolated to men - they're taking waaaaay more testosterone than their body is meant to handle or run on. Basically massively overdosing, so it'd be more equivalent to a man who's taking a huge overdose of testosterone.

Do you mean 9 or 13 years old?

If so, that’s terrifying. Really shocking that, as a society, we’ve let that happen.

Yes 9 years old right up to 17 is the younger ages we see seeking support for pornography addiction. I'm sure the statistic is something like 5years to 8 years is the ages some are seeing pornography for the first time. It is awful.

I think it depends on the porn. Erotic fiction and also cartoon porn are types of porn, and obviously neither involve exploitation of any actual people

OP I'd be really interested in what you think about porn that doesn't involve actual people - eg erotic fiction, cartoon or video game porn, porn which uses an AI model not based on any real individual. Obviously they don't involve trafficking or exploitation of any individual (which I think even porn 'supporters' object to) - so do you think these types of porn are fine or not?