Why do so many people seem to think porn is OK?

[CurlewKate]

I want to make it clear that I have no problem with masturbation. But there is no way of knowing whether the people involved in making porn are fully consenting and properly paid. Obviously some are. But many are trafficked, exploited and coerced and it’s impossible to tell the difference. So why condone it? I know people will say that there have always been erotic images. Of course there have. But there is a big difference between a cave painting or some 19th century etchings or the erotic writing I enjoy and the online porn which has flooded the internet for the past 50ish years.

Don’t think anybody is saying it’s a human right! But unless all sexually explicit content is made illegal in all forms it isn’t going anywhere

My comment is just expressing my confusion that people think men need porn in order to masturbate, when they definitely don't!

No, they absolutely do not.

Nobody is, as far as I know, considering making all sexually explicit content illegal. As a reader and writer of erotica, I would be very opposed to that. The issue is the production of material that involves exploitation, coercion and trafficking. Which I see we are swerving away from again.

I went through a phase of watching porn in my perimenopausal hyper sexual phase.

Erica Lust is a good director to start with- she has a code of conduct for shoots (can't remember what's in it now, except that everybody gets fed!) What I notice about her films is that everybody seemed to be having a good time, with lots of laughing and joking between actors and self consciously silly plots. The films I preferred were orgies with both sexes and several genders all getting it on with each other.

I did watch some mainstream porn that a boyfriend showed me, and as well as exploitative and designed solely for the male gaze it also seemed crashingly dull and humourless.

Is it easy to find out how ethically the animals are treated that end up in our food?

i don’t think anyone is supporting the production of material that involves exploitation, coercion and trafficking, or at least I haven’t seen anyone doing that.

I said “more ethical.” And yes. You can read the label.

Interesting. I just looked her up. Looks much better than your usual porn. And it got me thinking that your usual porn is catered to the male gaze as it is produced largely by men… and it’s often very dehumanizing and cruel and derogatory.. clearly reflective of harmful and misogynistic views they hold of women. I think for me, that’s the crux of the issue. And you’ve got men getting off to that.

What's the appeal of watching people being paid to have sex? And why did you watch it because you were 'hyper sexual'? Genuine questions.

I never understand what about seeing other people having (potentially uncomfortable, ingenuine, emotionless, money-motivated) sex is supposed to be appealing. It's just flesh going into other people's flesh holes, really, and when I've encountered it, all I can think about is whether it's coerced, or driven by low self-esteem and lack of boundaries, or past sexual abuse, or whether they're sore or thirsty and need a break, or how weird the penises look being mostly American, etc.

And why did having a higher sex drive make you want to watch porn? I've had a very high libido at points in my life, but it's never made me want to watch other people have sex.

For some I think it’s really just a visual thing. I don’t think there’s any emotion attached to it.

Well, most people aren’t addressing what we could do about it. A lot of people are saying what about IPhones or your ethical dilemma of choice. What about hieroglyphs? What about the tiny minority of “happy hookers”? What about anything but the undeniable abuse that exists in industrialised porn?

Yes, I know, I'm not talking about emotion, really. I'm asking what's visually attractive about seeing other people have sex?

It's just flesh going into flesh on a screen, none of it is happening to you, and it's probably uncomfortable and tiresome for the actors, at best. So I often wonder - what's the appeal?

I’m not sure the question of why people like is relevant, is it? They obviously do. And I have to say, I have quite enjoyed the softer end of the porn I’ve seen. But, to continue the food analogy, people liked white veal and fois gras. That didn’t stop them being banned.

Apologies. I was just curious, as it really doesn't make much sense to me why people like watching pornography.

Personally, I think anything involving real humans having sex should be treated more like organ donation - it needs to be rigorously overseen, and people shouldn't be able to charge money for it, to ensure it's kept safe and free of coercion. In addition, I think showing unsafe practices and violence shouldn't be allowed, for a multitude of reasons.

The fact that it's easy and there's no opposing force to satisfying the urge.

Most men spend a considerable part of their lives desperately wanting sex that they can't have. For those that are too ugly, old, poor, socially awkard or whatever to get a partner, this can be their default state all or most of the time. For those that do have a partner, sex still comes with requirements and effort attached, some of which can be successfully managed for a fulfilling sex life but much of which comes down to elusive emotional issues that can be hard or impossible to understand. And then even for the minority IN a relationship WITH a fulfilling sex life, there's usually a part of them that is inherently non-monogamous so still desires easy sex with people other than their partner.

Porn bypasses all that and says "for the next few minutes or hours, there is only your urge and the satisfaction of it. Everything on the screen is tailored to that end".

@SoftlyDoesntIt I understand the desire to masturbate without the faff of looking after your partner, or doing so if they're not in the mood. And I can understand wanting to fantasise about other people/situations etc. But perhaps I'll just never understand what's appealing about watching other people having unenjoyable sex, while getting no actual sex yourself. Ethics aside, it just would take me out of the mood entirely. Ah well.

Sorry-no apology required. I understand your point. I do like your organization donation analogy!

I usually don’t understand when people say “Mumsnetters hate men!”. But your characterisation of men makes me want to go and live on a desert island with my cats. Or a lesbian commune- whichever is nearer.

Why?

It makes it sound as though all men ever think about is how they can use the women-objects to fulfil their selfish sexual urges without consideration for a partner, because they can never get enough sex from the women-objects, or have sex without enough women-objects, or because the stupid women-objects insist on being treated like people before they dispense sex.

It was just a little incel-y.

And amusingly, I was asking a woman why she enjoyed watching porn, and wasn't talking about men specifically.

@OtterlyAstounding
Well I didn't look back through the whole reply history (does anyone ever do that?), I was just responding to this:

Yes, I know, I'm not talking about emotion, really. I'm asking what's visually attractive about seeing other people have sex?
It's just flesh going into flesh on a screen, none of it is happening to you, and it's probably uncomfortable and tiresome for the actors, at best. So I often wonder - what's the appeal?

Which just reads as a general question why people in general watch it. And the majority of porn users are men.

It makes it sound as though all men ever think about is how they can use the women-objects to fulfil their selfish sexual urges without consideration for a partner, because they can never get enough sex from the women-objects, or have sex without enough women-objects, or because the stupid women-objects insist on being treated like people before they dispense sex.

But nothing I wrote suggested that it's ALL they think about, and if it were then men would never fall in love, have loving and committed relationships, raise children and all the other things they do.

It's just one very powerful part of the male psyche, it often isn't satisfied by real life and porn is an easy way to manage it.

It's probably not the whole answer of course. By all means tell us if you think there's a better one.

Fair enough. I was hoping for something more people-specific about why watching something happening to someone else is so fun, but either way, I'm not sure I'll get an answer that makes sense to me!

I'm not saying you're wrong, necessarily. But it if you're right, then it just emphasises that a huge part of the male psyche categorises all women purely in terms of their sexual value to those men. To the extent that many of them will choose porn over and above those loving, committed relationships, as they'll continue to watch it even when their girlfriend/wife expresses discomfort with porn due to ethics, personal reasons, etc.

Also, 'falling in love' could be reclassified as 'getting a personal woman-object to wank into', and plenty of them don't do enough to raise their children, leaving the lion's share to women.

It's rather depressing to see it written out so starkly, and would make any sane woman want to go and live on an island with her cats.