Why do so many people seem to think porn is OK?

[CurlewKate]

I want to make it clear that I have no problem with masturbation. But there is no way of knowing whether the people involved in making porn are fully consenting and properly paid. Obviously some are. But many are trafficked, exploited and coerced and it’s impossible to tell the difference. So why condone it? I know people will say that there have always been erotic images. Of course there have. But there is a big difference between a cave painting or some 19th century etchings or the erotic writing I enjoy and the online porn which has flooded the internet for the past 50ish years.

I'm curious - do you think that pornographic material depicting children is 'fine' if the content is AI made?

I don't think I know enough about the state of research and evidence to answer. But if there's evidence that the existence of such material increases rates of offending against children, obviously not.

"I also think a lot of women just don't like seeing the less palatable aspect of male sexuality laid bare for what they are." What do you mean by this? I think women are generally extremely aware of the ways in which male sexual behaviour can be harmful, never mind porn.

I was referring not so much to behaviour as underlying state of mind. Women can often look at male sexual behaviour and condemn it, while convincing themselves that if men only tried a bit harder, or were socialised a bit better, they would be just like women so everything would be OK. It's easy to condemn a rapist or a child abuser. Coming to grips with what's going on in the head of your perfectly ordinary partner who is neither of those things, when you discover his porn habit, can be less easy.

You think sex should be a combative interaction of dehumanised body parts between two paid actors? Hmm.

I could try, but I have a feeling you'd only dissect each point to show that those issues are not elusive at all.

There are things that are elusive to many men, that seem perfectly obvious and ordinary to many women.

Did I say that?

So you think videos depicting children being raped and abused would be fine if they were AI, and didn't increase offending? Jesus Christ. What kind of hellscape do you want to live in?

I don't think you have any clue what the average woman thinks.

Although it's interesting to know that you think men are inherently irredeemable and always want to see/do things that women would find distasteful.

That was a reasonable inference, yes.

And incidentally, society puts plenty of limits (legal or social) on what people can do during sex. Just as society puts limits on people's behaviour in general.

It's interesting that you haven't addressed any of my main issues with pornography, though. All you've said is that AI child sex abuse isn't inherently bad, before giving your wild guesses about what women think.

So you think videos depicting children being raped and abused would be fine if they were AI, and didn't increase offending? Jesus Christ. What kind of hellscape do you want to live in?

I didn't say that either.

I don't think you have any clue what the average woman thinks.

Quite possibly true.

I enjoyed the beginning of this conversation but I don't think we're communicating very effectively now, so I think I'll bow out.

In answer to your question CurlewKate, Why do so many people seem to think porn is OK?

Many/most people are selfish cunts and dont care about anyone else as long as they get their rocks off.

Pure selfishness and entitlement.

The question that I would like an answer to is why is pornography allowed so freely on the Internet?

It feels like it is a hoop jumping opt out choice rather than a hoop jumping opt in choice.

My stance is pornography is socialy sanctioned sexual abuse.

Well put!

What on earth makes you think that women object to porn because they feel 'threatened'?

Normalisation. It also seems to be inherent in humans to objectify women.
The most sexually explicit pop videos today are made by women artists with full creative autonomy. No male svengali. And they're generally much more explicit than vintage hip hop videos. Women today go to the gym in basically underwear. I just saw a video of twitter of an "exercise instructor" in hot pants gyrating her hips and rolling her vag slowly back and forth on an exercise ball. What's remarkable to me is that the aesthetic that has emerged from female liberation looks worse than the one we were told was imposed.

When Pornhub were finally forced to prove age and consent of the people in the images and videos on their site they removed over ninety percent of their content. That’s the only argument you need for pro porn brigade.

OVER NINETY PERCENT!

Seriously?
We are going to pretend that the majority women who post here about - he watches porn with younger women; who don’t look like me; etc - object to it on the grounds of potential exploitation?
Add to it the - he looks on Instagram, he ‘liked’ young women profiles, he notices women when we are out….

Objecting to women’s exploitation - does not have to make us hypocrites. Many women’s self esteem seems to be defined by their men’s masturbation and libido.

And that is really sad. IMHO

Frankly, if my husband 'liked' young women's profiles, or leched at women when we were out, I'd be grossed out that he was a pervert who saw women as sexual objects, not threatened!!

As for porn, I think for many women, there is an element of feeling bothered that while they're dealing with the bodily changes that come with bearing their husband's children, their husband is too busy wanking to potentially exploited or raped young women who don't look anything like them, and who are doing gross or painful things they don't ever want to do, to do the housework, help with the children, be attentive to her, or otherwise be a useful human being.

So it's frequently all of those things, or at least multiple of them. Not all of them have issues with ethics as they're not always well-informed, but I think most do consider it exploitative.

A lot of women, though, have the attitude beaten into them by society that men 'need' porn and they just can't stop men from watching it...which is where I think you then start to get insecurities creeping in.

@OtterlyAstounding

I tend to agree with a lot of what you say.
My point was bit about whether the insecurities we feel are justified or not.
More the point that women do feel insecure and a lot if objection to porn stems from that.

Maybe it’s my peri-brain clarity that makes me see sexuality differently. But to me it seems that younger women spend an extraordinary amount of energy worrying that if their men see other women as sexual beings - that somehow threatens their relationship.
While it does not - not in any meaningful way.

Every porn discussion centers on exploitation - which no one argues is a good thing.
But why on earth are we not talking about how to be less insecure?

I don’t feel insecure.

I’m more concerned with it making my ex a borderline paedophile, eyeing up teenagers in public but unable to tell the difference between a 14 or 18 year old. It primed his brain to seemingly only respond to variety, he’s now unable to maintain an erection during real sex and often during porn watching. It made him snappy, anxious and depressed.

Every man who used pornhub has likely masturbated to children, prior to them being ordered to remove 90% of their unverified content.
Our teenage sons are choking their teenage girlfriends without consent. Our teenagers daughters are putting themselves at risk of anal prolapse.

I’m surprised more women/mothers aren’t more upset about it tbh. Porn is destroying the fabric of society, China is correct, it’s a disease of the west. There should be national outrage but instead we get “ I don’t mind it” and “I watch it with him”. What the fuck.

If only women would sort themselves out. Maybe some therapy? Then men could just get on with their lives not having to worry about the poor insecure little flowers…

I knew someone who had to have surgery for anal prolapse, and her partner at the time was like “so when can we have sex again?”
she ended up marrying him. We are no longer friends. Absolutely vile.

It’s depressing that,as usual when there’s a discussion about shit men’s behaviour, the assumption is that it is up to women to sort it out.

Realistically, do you think men will ever do anything on this topic to protect women and children? Do you think they’d stop mid wank if they found out the girl was 14 and/or a rape victim? Do you think they’d stop ever feel guilty about any of it?

Of course it’s up to women. Men don’t care! They defend porn like it’s their oxygen.

I’m not insecure. I am outraged that my 14 yo DD and peers were exposed to child abuse images from a classmate. A classmate who himself, was exposed to porn , then went looking for more and more extreme content, until he ended up where he did.. at 14. Not just that, but he exposed other children to it. It’s in no way an isolated case.

I think the insecure argument (and the controlling one if anyone hasnt mentioned that yet) is just another weaponized way to blame women and direct away from the real issues.

It's all just dressed up arguments that underneath are let men do what they want and don't ask questions.

A timely article from today's Times :

www.thetimes.com/uk/social-media/article/the-professor-taking-on-big-porns-extreme-content-5wg09wjqc

"McGlynn and her colleague Fiona Vera-Gray decided to prove that the platforms were actively driving users towards extreme content.... Every hour for six months they downloaded the porn titles showcased by the sites to drive engagement — more than 150,000 films in all. One in eight titles, they discovered, described acts of sexual violence using words like punish, torture, destroy, pain, ram and, McGlynn writes drily, “A few even managed to spell annihilate.” ...

McGlynn says their resulting report in 2021 was highly influential because it studied not what people wanted, but what Big Porn fed them. “Before, the porn platforms argued, ‘We’re just responding to demand. If people want incest porn, we’re just giving it to them.’ ” In fact, they were offering “boundary-breaking” material to keep men hooked. The idea that online porn is a harmless private habit was exposed as a fallacy: “Each view, each ‘like’, is giving porn companies the data that then shapes the next lot of porn that’s made, which will be even more extreme.”

Archive link: archive.is/JQzu7

"Much violent porn contained the word “teen”, with titles referring to girls being “abused” or made to cry. (McGlynn notes that 14 to 17-year-old girls are the most likely group to be sexually assaulted.) She is haunted by footage of naked girls with mascara tears streaming down their faces: “It made me think, ‘They’re not trying to hide what they do.’ ” "